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Religions, ideologies, and the cultural protections afforded to both

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  • Religions, ideologies, and the cultural protections afforded to both

    I thought I would raise for discussion the question of the cultural protections afforded to religions and ideologies, and the differences between them. I think this is very important for a clear understanding of exactly what we are dealing with when we speak of a given religion or ideology and how much protection we should give it.

    Though the dualist view of reality has been pretty much discarded by professional philosophers, it continues to live on in creatively perverse ways in the popular culture.

    Under this view, any idea which pertains to "this" world, the immediately apparent and manifest world, and which makes normative judgements about the same, can be said to be an ideology.

    All that relates to "spiritual" experiences, however, and which deals with the relationship at a subjective level of an individual with this world and his fellow denizens of it is supposed to fall into the realm of religion.

    Now I know that these definitions are far from exact, but they're a start. In general, we have some sort of cultural propensity to afford sympathy and protection from criticism to that which we class as "religious". Ideologies which speak of the ordering of the material world, however, are not given the same protection.

    In general, we're more wary of criticising someone's supernatural belief system than their political affiliation. You can generally call someone deluded for being a Democrat/Republican, and do so in good fun, but you'll be considered a bad sport if you joke about someone's religion.






    To move to the meat of the matter: what happens when there happens to be a set of ideas which is a religion and an ideology all rolled into one?

    Should the ideology parts of it be free from criticism because the idea-set also contains a religion?

    Or is it that the minute an idea-set makes an ideological claim, it opens itself up to all the criticisms ideologies are open to?

  • #2
    If someone uses their religious beliefs as a basis for, or integral part of, a political ideology, it ought to be fair game.

    Fire at will.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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    • #3
      I don't think either religions or ideologies are protected in western culture. Everything is fair game. If you are deluded you are deluded.
      I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
      - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Kidicious
        I don't think either religions or ideologies are protected in western culture. Everything is fair game. If you are deluded you are deluded.
        That is BS and you know it.



        Specific ideologies are protected. It is also politically incorect to criticize several religions.


        Also delusion isn't objective, anyone is deluded in the right social frame. The West is just better at hiding its implied values and noncrimethink that other cultures are.
        Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
        The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
        The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Heraclitus
          Specific ideologies are protected. It is also politically incorect to criticize several religions.
          Which ideologies and religions are you refering to?
          Also delusion isn't objective, anyone is deluded in the right social frame.
          No, no. Just because something isn't objectively true, doesn't mean it isn't true. Some truths are subjective. Everyone is not delusional.
          The West is just better at hiding its implied values and noncrimethink that other cultures are.
          ???
          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kidicious

            No, no. Just because something isn't objectively true, doesn't mean it isn't true. Some truths are subjective. Everyone is not delusional.
            sigh

            You misunderstand, a lot of things are objectively true, but judging whether someone is insane/deluded is always a subjective procces. Since the only benchmark for delusion is society itself, and it is in the nature of psychiatric institutions to be at risk of becoming servants of teh elite.


            Extreme example: Many Chinese dissidents are in locked up in psychiatric hospitals.

            Silly example: Muslim Extremist considered "deluded" in Austria, is "normal" in Iran
            Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
            The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
            The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Kidicious
              ???
              The US has classical military power, Europe has soft power.
              Many argue that while soft power seems ineffective it has proven to have a greater impact on events.


              Now let me draw an analogy between military power and mind control. Iran has strong and obvious control, the West has far more subtle methods.


              It's the difference between 1984 and Brave New World.


              Disclaimer: Am sleepy and on pain meds, may not be making sense. Will make sense tomorrow. I hope.
              Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
              The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
              The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Heraclitus


                sigh

                You misunderstand, a lot of things are objectively true, but judging whether someone is insane/deluded is always a subjective procces. Since the only benchmark for delusion is society itself, and it is in the nature of psychiatric institutions to be at risk of becoming servants of teh elite.


                Extreme example: Many Chinese dissidents are in locked up in psychiatric hospitals.

                Silly example: Muslim Extremist considered "deluded" in Austria, is "normal" in Iran
                The only point of contention that I have with your opinion is the case where the psychologist or psychiatrist is not diagnosing someone as delusional when they aren't actually delusional.

                Actually I don't have much respect for psychologists as a group, but my statement stands, "if you are deluded, you are deluded." That's independent of subjective opinion.
                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kidicious

                  Which ideologies and religions are you refering to?
                  A few random tag lines that nominaly form a part of the are a part of the dominant (global capitalist) ideology, but are contradicted by other parts of the ideology. Other such concepts, some far less and others more noble, are as ingrained and unquestioned in our psyche as these.

                  "all men are created equal"

                  "inalienable human rights"

                  "racial equality"

                  "equality of the sexes"

                  "the supremacy of market economies"

                  "human behavior is economic behavior"

                  "we need to get in touch with our feminine side"
                  ect.


                  Now tell me, objectively, how is the West totaly embracing these ideas different from other cultures embracing some of these:

                  "capitalism is doomed to fail and be replaced by communism"

                  "there is one god and Mohamed is his prophet"

                  "we are living in the end days"

                  "white man's burden"

                  "market failure"
                  Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                  The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                  The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Heraclitus


                    The US has classical military power, Europe has soft power.
                    Many argue that while soft power seems ineffective it has proven to have a greater impact on events.


                    Now let me draw an analogy between military power and mind control. Iran has strong and obvious control, the West has far more subtle methods.


                    It's the difference between 1984 and Brave New World.


                    Disclaimer: Am sleepy and on pain meds, may not be making sense. Will make sense tomorrow. I hope.
                    I don't think it's as much "the West is better at hiding it's implied values." Many people in the West are delusional, and psychologist actually believe that a certain level of delusion is healthy. That said, I do not personally prefer to be delusional.
                    I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                    - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Heraclitus


                      A few random tag lines that nominaly form a part of the are a part of the dominant (global capitalist) ideology, but are contradicted by other parts of the ideology. Other such concepts, some far less and others more noble, are as ingrained and unquestioned in our psyche as these.

                      "all men are created equal"

                      "inalienable human rights"

                      "racial equality"

                      "equality of the sexes"

                      "the supremacy of market economies"

                      "human behavior is economic behavior"

                      "we need to get in touch with our feminine side"
                      ect.


                      Now tell me, objectively, how is the West totaly embracing these ideas different from other cultures embracing some of these:

                      "capitalism is doomed to fail and be replaced by communism"

                      "there is one god and Mohamed is his prophet"

                      "we are living in the end days"

                      "white man's burden"

                      "market failure"
                      I don't think the West embraces anything totally except entertainment. It's all about good vs evil.
                      I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                      - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kidicious
                        That said, I do not personally prefer to be delusional.
                        Me neither, but this is also a delusion.
                        Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                        The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                        The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kidicious


                          I don't think the West embraces anything totally except entertainment. It's all about good vs evil.

                          You are right about that, but the obsession with entertainment, consumption and pleasure is an ideology in its own right.
                          Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                          The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                          The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heraclitus



                            You are right about that, but the obsession with entertainment, consumption and pleasure is an ideology in its own right.
                            hmmm... I stand corrected.
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              All religions are ideologies, by definition, though not all ideologies are religions (thank heavens).

                              In the US, at least, religions are protected in a way that non-religious ideologies are not. For example, if you refuse to hire someone because he wore a Nazi armband to the interview and told you outright that he was a white supremacist, you probably don't have a problem. But if you refuse to hire someone because he wore a cross on his lapel at the interview and told you outright that he was a Christian -- well, welcome to lawsuit city.
                              "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

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