The Cold War is Back, can we Make Lemonade?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Fantasy was anything where the Russians win, and Science Fiction was where the Russians lost

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by ramseya
Democratic reforms in Czechoslovakia... The USSR sent 200K troops and 2000 tanks. (Nor was this an isolated incident as there was also the Hungarian Revolution of 1956)

Communist revolution in Cuba... USA sends two CIA agents and a thousand exiles.

yeah US is an evil empire

We just suck at it...

[ramseya]

There is a tendency for people of the left-wing persuasion to often criticize American foreign policy. From the perspective that we should be a shining example to the world, yes our overt involvement in Vietnam, the Iran-Contra affair, the war on drugs, Iraq, etc. and our covert involvement throughout Latin America, does tamper our reputation...

But it should not be forgotten that if we don't do it, nothing is to stop China and Russia from manipulating the whole world. And at least when we do it, we have good intentions and at the very least, a facade of righteousness and sympathy (even if it may be reminiscent to some of the White Man's Burden). Russia will never even give you that benefit.

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Fantasy was anything where the Russians win, and Science Fiction was where the Russians lost

I'd say Science Fiction is where the Americans, either by themselves or as leaders of the earth, defeat the aliens.

As for your fantasy scenario, I can't think of one movie where the Russians win. The closest I can think of is Red Dawn (to quote Powers Boothe - "We held them at the Rockies") or the nuke movies where both sides get destroyed or at least take a big hit (The Day After, Fail Safe, On the Beach etc). But I can't think of one movie where the Ruskies win.

It's a good thing Americans make most of the movies.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by ramseya
There is a tendency for people of the left-wing persuasion to often criticize American foreign policy. From the perspective that we should be a shining example to the world, yes our overt involvement in Vietnam, the Iran-Contra affair, the war on drugs, Iraq, etc. and our covert involvement throughout Latin America, does tamper our reputation...

But it should not be forgotten that if we don't do it, nothing is to stop China and Russia from manipulating the whole world. And at least when we do it, we have good intentions and at the very least, a facade of righteousness and sympathy (even if it may be reminiscent to some of the White Man's Burden). Russia will never even give you that benefit.

It is a fundamental responsibility of the American political system, for people to criticize the government's policy. In fact, it is the only reason why our political system works. If people didn't criticize the government (and thus affect some change in policy), we would just be ... the soviet union.

(By the way, it's 'tarnish', not 'tamper'...)

[ramseya]

Snoopy:

that is fine... I just think that a lot of people who do the criticizing forget that. I hope that for all their complaints and protests that they know, in the back of their minds, that the USA messing around in a country is generally better than the Russian Federation or China messing around, especially for the citizens of the aforementioned country.

[snoopy369]

Um, they may well not feel that the USA messing around in a country is better. There's nothing wrong with holding that opinion... It's from back and forth between opposing viewpoints that the American ideal arises. If people believe staying out of other peoples' business is the right thing to do, they have the right to believe that, and to argue for it; and it's not such an unreasonable point of view.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Lancer

At the end of WWII the US could have conquered the world through threat of nuclear annihilation. As the only nation with nukes we could have owned all. Our fleets were greater than the rest of the world combined, we were supreme.

Sorry, but this is simply not true.


You could not have produced atomic weapons on a scale sufficient to take over the world fast enough before the other powers got nukes.


Even if they didn't the UK and USSR would have responded by using Chemical weapons vs. the US, not a pretty sight.


Assuming you would have tried to take over the world militarily, you would never have had the manpower. Best navy in the world or not, Eurasia + Africa can only be conquered by land.


And even if you could do this in just a few years, before other nations got nukes, your empire would collapse in a few decades.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by ramseya

yeah US is an evil empire

Hey don't be sulky just because you're not as good at it as the USSR.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Deity Dude


I'd say Science Fiction is where the Americans, either by themselves or as leaders of the earth, defeat the aliens.

As for your fantasy scenario, I can't think of one movie where the Russians win. The closest I can think of is Red Dawn (to quote Powers Boothe - "We held them at the Rockies") or the nuke movies where both sides get destroyed or at least take a big hit (The Day After, Fail Safe, On the Beach etc). But I can't think of one movie where the Ruskies win.

It's a good thing Americans make most of the movies.

Alexander Nevsky But seriously, why would the Russians win in American Cold War era movies?

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Lancer
and now invading a democracy and stealing everything they can get their hands on while lieing on the way in and now lieing about leaving. Nice.

And destroying a democracy and bringing fascists to power is better how?

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by ramseya
There is a tendency for people of the left-wing persuasion to often criticize American foreign policy. From the perspective that we should be a shining example to the world, yes our overt involvement in Vietnam, the Iran-Contra affair, the war on drugs, Iraq, etc. and our covert involvement throughout Latin America, does tamper our reputation...

But it should not be forgotten that if we don't do it, nothing is to stop China and Russia from manipulating the whole world. And at least when we do it, we have good intentions and at the very least, a facade of righteousness and sympathy (even if it may be reminiscent to some of the White Man's Burden). Russia will never even give you that benefit.

The USA is a young power, as you grow older you will become more and more similar to Russia and China. You where idealistic in the past, but modern day US policy is firmly in realpolitik at its best, and neocon wet dreams at worst. And it will only get worse as your nation ages. Power corrupts.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by ramseya

that is fine... I just think that a lot of people who do the criticizing forget that. I hope that for all their complaints and protests that they know, in the back of their minds, that the USA messing around in a country is generally better than the Russian Federation or China messing around, especially for the citizens of the aforementioned country.

Duh?

I mean we aren't stupid you know, just compare Tibet to Iraq and we can see the difference.

It's just that we expect more from a "democracy" than you are doing. If the US was a police state and had the foreign policy & record it has I would consider it a very benign imperialist power.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by snoopy369
If people believe staying out of other peoples' business is the right thing to do, they have the right to believe that, and to argue for it; and it's not such an unreasonable point of view.

In general this is my point of view.

But I am biased in the matter since the bigger European nations haven't stayed out of our business for the past 1500 years.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
And destroying a democracy and bringing fascists to power is better how?

The only reason Allende didn't murder thousands of his own people is because Pinochet beat him to the punch. Otherwise Chile would have gone the way of Cuba.