The dangers of the Paedophile Panic.

[BeBMan]

Rule of Law

Stupid Mob

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I feel a genuine restriction of liberty, and a harsh climate of authoritarianism which is passively accepted by too many people who will swallow any crap about 'security' to grant the state arbitrary powers. It's made worse by politicians who, realising they lack any connection to ordinary people, or any inspirational leadership in economic or social progress, latch on to various fears as a way of enhancing their legitimacy and control.

[Jaguar]

This is an interesting thread. I have a couple of personal experiences that relate to the subject. The first is that I've recently worked a summer at a day camp with young children. In that industry, pedophiles are a concern (as are false accusations of pedophilia.)

The other experience I should mention is that when I was about nine years old and running a brief errand by myself, I was approached by a man who was almost certainly a pedophile. He was probably in his 40s or 50s, and he asked me if I would like a lollipop. It was about 1997 or 1998, definitely a time period where it was obviously not kosher for adults to approach children and offer them candy. I kept my distance from him and declined the offer. He might have persisted verbally, but he made no attempt to chase me as I aborted my errand and went to find my mother, who was only a few shops away. He was gone when my mother, my sister and I came back outside.

Oh, and apparently one of my little league soccer coaches turned out to be a pedophile, too, and I never knew that until a couple of weeks ago when my mom told me.

With those experiences in mind, here are some of my thoughts.

- Pedophilia is just one of the many things that the school/camp/childcare industry is deathly afraid of. They've become supervigilant about everything from peanut allergies to school shootings to bullying.

- There's a huge double standard when it comes to gender and pedophilia. The obvious examples are those female teacher/male student relationships, where people would flip out much more if the genders were reversed. Another example: think about what you'd consider appropriate for a female teacher of very young children. (Can they change diapers for children of both genders? Can they let kids sit in their laps? Can they give children hugs?) Now think about the same, with a male teacher. Society seems to deem it less appropriate for a man to care for children, or to have affectionate relationships with children he's not related to.

- In many respects it's not so different from other weird fetishes. Basically, it seems like fetishes are the brain confusing sexual feelings with other feelings. (For example, people who are aroused by pain.) Is it really so surprising that people would confuse the natural instinct to be affectionate towards children with sexual feelings? In a way, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than most fetishes. I'm not sure whether an attraction to children is more "sick" than those, by itself. It's acting on that attraction that's terrible.

- Many pedophiles, I think, don't want to see themselves as "bad people." Many of them aren't violent, like rapists are. They probably genuinely don't want to hurt people. They just have a strong instinct that can't be fulfilled without doing something that's morally wrong. It's really an awful position to be in.

- Basically, the amount of hatred directed towards them is kind of frightening. I think people like to have a despised group at the bottom of the pecking order, and pedophiles kind of are it. And nobody can really discuss the issue substantively, because the only socially appropriate response is to basically declare these people to be evil incarnate. Maybe if people weren't this vitriolic, it would be possible for pedophiles to get the right kind of help and learn to control themselves. I'm not sure that society's hatred for these people helps things.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Jaguar

- Pedophilia is just one of the many things that the school/camp/childcare industry is deathly afraid of. They've become supervigilant about everything from peanut allergies to school shootings to bullying.

- There's a huge double standard when it comes to gender and pedophilia. The obvious examples are those female teacher/male student relationships, where people would flip out much more if the genders were reversed. Another example: think about what you'd consider appropriate for a female teacher of very young children. (Can they change diapers for children of both genders? Can they let kids sit in their laps? Can they give children hugs?) Now think about the same, with a male teacher. Society seems to deem it less appropriate for a man to care for children, or to have affectionate relationships with children he's not related to.

- In many respects it's not so different from other weird fetishes. Basically, it seems like fetishes are the brain confusing sexual feelings with other feelings. (For example, people who are aroused by pain.) Is it really so surprising that people would confuse the natural instinct to be affectionate towards children with sexual feelings? In a way, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than most fetishes. I'm not sure whether an attraction to children is more "sick" than those, by itself. It's acting on that attraction that's terrible.

- Many pedophiles, I think, don't want to see themselves as "bad people." Many of them aren't violent, like rapists are. They probably genuinely don't want to hurt people. They just have a strong instinct that can't be fulfilled without doing something that's morally wrong. It's really an awful position to be in.

- Basically, the amount of hatred directed towards them is kind of frightening. I think people like to have a despised group at the bottom of the pecking order, and pedophiles kind of are it. And nobody can really discuss the issue substantively, because the only socially appropriate response is to basically declare these people to be evil incarnate. Maybe if people weren't this vitriolic, it would be possible for pedophiles to get the right kind of help and learn to control themselves. I'm not sure that society's hatred for these people helps things.

You are right on many counts.

Being reasonable
Protecting kids from abuse
Double Standards
Saying that Pedophiles deserve everything we can do to them

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Thanks for the links, Footsie.

One point I would question though, is the assumptions that victims are likely to become perpetrators. It's bad enough for someone to have been abused as a child without them being accused without evidence of being a nonce themselves.

well let s put it this way, not all of the people being abused become abusers themselves, 90%+ of the abusers were abused themselves when they were minors... thus perpetuating the "illness" ... there are very few people coming from "normal" background who get into this sort of behavior + there is quite a lot of sexual abuse that kids suffer, at least in the UK (majority within their homes) and a minority of them actually turn into perpetrators themselves when they come of age... and those who sexually abuse in their homes are not the "classic pedo" the pedophile the public is afraid of is the one who is totally nuts and goes out kidnaps/abuses unrelated kids to have their their way with them which is quite a minority in the group of people who actually sexually abused "someone".

Sexual abuse is a tricky subject overall, and mostly goes along with other kinds of violence first. Sex is just part of the violence - ie trying to hurt the other person - the pedophile the public is afraid of is a special case who actually goes for "only" sex with minors and than acts upon the urge... and those cannot really be corrected, as typically the urge remains even after the prison sentence etc... in that respect I would view it as sexual orientation, but certainly the one which should be prohibited as the integral part of it is using minors who are not fit to participate or even judge on what is going on...

My wife is a therapist here so works with both sides of the picture... in any case one thing that is really poor is the law... archaic and simply inadequate to deal with the social issue at hand...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Heresson
I think it's common in Poland. I'd rather be taken for a serial, extremly cruel, killer than a paedophile. People usually express their happiness at that they will be tortured by other inmates at prison, which clearly shows the attitude. But it's a disease. It can lead to great harm for the children, but I believe the society is playing dumb and irresponsible. If You harm a paedophile after he molested a child, You can only "avenge" it, the harm is already done. Profilactic (?) would be better - It would be the best if people surmising they have such inclinations could get help restricting them, to avoid commiting crimes. But it will not happen, because, I think, there's no plan for that, and admitting any such inclinations would mean social death, even if such person never hurted anyone.

well they are well hated for a good reason, and off course on the other hand there is no point in hurting them once they have done what they did...

In my opinion they would need a revised prison system where they could be productive (as typically they can be fairly functional otherwise), but still outside of the society with some sort of medical/psychiatric supervison in that environment... + much better tracking/help when they are released back into the society... and longer sentences no doubt... but the prison system is totally screwed as it is over here so an initiative like this is perhaps something for 22nd century...

For people with only such inclinations, well there is always private therapy perhaps ?even now? which could work to help them keep it under control... but other than that I don't know what could help them short of creation of an isolated community supported by the government where they could go if they find there is no stopping themselves offending, which is like self-jail, not sure how many takers would be for that...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
The thing about trrrism is indeed another problem. I like taking photos, or rather used to like taking photos, of architecture that interested me in London. Now I don't dare because I don't want a policeman all over me.

Even walking around looking at buildings under the lidless eyes of the omnipresent security cameras could be interpreted as 'suspicious' by a dumb cop / security hack who never understood why buildings might be interesting to look at by people other than mass-murderers.

I feel a genuine restriction of liberty, and a harsh climate of authoritarianism which is passively accepted by too many people who will swallow any crap about 'security' to grant the state arbitrary powers. It's made worse by politicians who, realising they lack any connection to ordinary people, or any inspirational leadership in economic or social progress, latch on to various fears as a way of enhancing their legitimacy and control.

in any case concerning photography - just a sign of times, and for the reasons you pointed out above... UK has REALLY deteriorated a lot in terms of personal freedoms in 10+ years that I have been here... from totally lax attitude to opening bank accounts/almost no identity proof to current 10 CCTV's per person, 42 day "no charge" detention!!! and all sort of "security" points to protect us against the invisible enemy... on that issue alone labour must go, no matter how incompetent conservatives might be...

David Davies made all the fuss on that issue, it is the right one to pick to make a fuss about...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Jaguar

With those experiences in mind, here are some of my thoughts.

- Pedophilia is just one of the many things that the school/camp/childcare industry is deathly afraid of. They've become supervigilant about everything from peanut allergies to school shootings to bullying.

- There's a huge double standard when it comes to gender and pedophilia. The obvious examples are those female teacher/male student relationships, where people would flip out much more if the genders were reversed. Another example: think about what you'd consider appropriate for a female teacher of very young children. (Can they change diapers for children of both genders? Can they let kids sit in their laps? Can they give children hugs?) Now think about the same, with a male teacher. Society seems to deem it less appropriate for a man to care for children, or to have affectionate relationships with children he's not related to.

- In many respects it's not so different from other weird fetishes. Basically, it seems like fetishes are the brain confusing sexual feelings with other feelings. (For example, people who are aroused by pain.) Is it really so surprising that people would confuse the natural instinct to be affectionate towards children with sexual feelings? In a way, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than most fetishes. I'm not sure whether an attraction to children is more "sick" than those, by itself. It's acting on that attraction that's terrible.

- Many pedophiles, I think, don't want to see themselves as "bad people." Many of them aren't violent, like rapists are. They probably genuinely don't want to hurt people. They just have a strong instinct that can't be fulfilled without doing something that's morally wrong. It's really an awful position to be in.

- Basically, the amount of hatred directed towards them is kind of frightening. I think people like to have a despised group at the bottom of the pecking order, and pedophiles kind of are it. And nobody can really discuss the issue substantively, because the only socially appropriate response is to basically declare these people to be evil incarnate. Maybe if people weren't this vitriolic, it would be possible for pedophiles to get the right kind of help and learn to control themselves. I'm not sure that society's hatred for these people helps things.

with the comment that the industry better be aware of it, as after all those type of people go there where they can find satisfaction, so such industries are typically the target...

Gender has a role but in this specific case women given their "instincts" and natural role are rightly less afraid of, but still they need the same "checks" as everyone else... it is just the way nature is, and it is "easier" for men to become deviant in this aspect. Off course men should not be viewed as potential pedos first, but it just goes together with every other racism, sexism and other isms, and the very fact that we people like to categorize followed by the double standards that arise from it...