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Where's the thread on the FISA bill?

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  • Where's the thread on the FISA bill?

    Considering we're getting ready to gut the 4th Amendment, I figure someone would have something to say. And the dems are all for it.

    Hopefully SCOTUS won't be too activist and will strike down the new law.
    I'm consitently stupid- Japher
    I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

  • #2
    Re: Where's the thread on the FISA bill?

    Originally posted by Theben
    Hopefully SCOTUS won't be too activist and will strike down the new law.
    Can't say I'm too optimistic about that one.
    "In the beginning was the Word. Then came the ******* word processor." -Dan Simmons, Hyperion

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    • #3
      Dems sucks (particularly the Blue Dogs who forced Pelosi's hand), throw rocks at 'em.

      I wish that the left made their stand on the NSA datamining program itself, instead of telecom amnesty. Misplaced priorities.
      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
      -Bokonon

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      • #4
        Boringithreadi
        THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
        AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
        AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
        DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

        Comment


        • #5
          It's well known that Indians don't care about freedom, with their backwards society.
          I'm consitently stupid- Japher
          I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

          Comment


          • #6
            With the Senate set to vote on FISA amendments this week, Ars examines the …


            The new FISA compromise: it's worse than you think

            By Timothy B. Lee | Published: July 07, 2008 - 11:30PM CT
            Telco immunity is the icing, not the cake

            Last month, the House of Representatives passed the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, Congress's latest response to President Bush's demands for expanded eavesdropping authority. The Democratic leadership, seemingly intent on avoiding real debate on the proposal, scheduled the final vote just a day after the bill was introduced in the House. Touted by Democratic leaders as a "compromise," it was supported almost unanimously by House Republicans and opposed by a majority of Democrats.

            The 114-page bill was pushed through the House so quickly that there was no real time to debate its many complex provisions. This may explain why the telecom immunity provision has received so much attention in the media: it is much easier to explain to readers not familiar with the intricacies of surveillance law than the other provisions. But as important as the immunity issue is, the legislation also makes many prospective changes to surveillance law that will profoundly impact our privacy rights for years to come.

            Specifically, the new legislation dramatically expands the government's ability to wiretap without meaningful judicial oversight, by redefining "oversight" so that the feds can drag their feet on getting authorization almost indefinitely. It also gives the feds unprecedented new latitude in selecting eavesdropping targets, latitude that could be used to collect information on non-terrorist-related activities like P2P copyright infringement and online gambling. In short, the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 opens up loopholes so large that the feds could drive a truck loaded down with purloined civil liberties through it. So the telecom immunity stuff is just the smoke; let's take a look at the fire.
            The importance of judicial scrutiny

            The most fundamental question in the FISA debate is whether judicial oversight will be required when the government spies on international communications originating on American soil. FISA has never limited spying on purely foreign communications, but under current law, the government must obtain court approval to tap a phone line or fiber optic cable in the United States, even if the other end of the communication is abroad. An application for a FISA warrant must specify the person or organization being targeted and present evidence that the target is an "agent of a foreign power," such as the Chinese government or Al Qaeda.

            The Bush administration has chafed at these restrictions, insisting that the president has the inherent authority to eavesdrop on suspected terrorists without court oversight. Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell argues that that the FISA process is so cumbersome that it impedes the intelligence community's efforts to spy on terrorists.

            Civil libertarians disagree, noting that FISA sets a lower bar for approving surveillance than the process for obtaining ordinary criminal warrants. And in emergency cases, FISA allows the government to begin spying immediately and seek a warrant after the fact. Most importantly, civil liberties groups emphasize that without judicial oversight, there is no way to know if the government is respecting any limits that Congress establishes.

            Consider, for example, the case of National Security Letters, administrative subpoenas that the Patriot Act allows the FBI to issue without court oversight. Last year a government audit last year found hundreds of cases in which the FBI had issued NSLs without following even the permissive rules of the Patriot Act. Civil libertarians warn that similar corner-cutting is inevitable if the NSA is allowed to choose eavesdropping targets without judicial scrutiny.
            No individual warrants for international calls

            When it comes to judicial oversight of domestic-to-foreign calls, the legislation the House passed last month is an unambiguous victory for the White House and a defeat for civil libertarians. The legislation establishes a new procedure whereby the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence can sign off on "authorizations" of surveillance programs "targeting people reasonably believed to be located outside the United States." The government is required to submit a "certification" to the FISA court describing the surveillance plan and the "minimization" procedures that will be used to avoid intercepting too many communications of American citizens. However, the government is not required to "identify the specific facilities, places, premises, or property" at which the eavesdropping will occur. The specific eavesdropping targets will be at the NSA's discretion and unreviewed by a judge. Moreover, the judge's review of the government's "certification" is much more limited than the scrutiny now given to FISA applications. The judge is permitted only to confirm that the certification "contains all the required elements," that the targeting procedures are "reasonably designed" to target foreigners, and that minimization procedures have been established.

            Crucially, there appears to be no limit to the breadth of "authorizations" the government might issue. So, for example, a single "authorization" might cover the interception of all international traffic passing through AT&T's San Francisco facility, with complex software algorithms deciding which communications are retained for the examination of human analysts. Without a list of specific targets, and without a background in computer programming, a judge is unlikely to be able to evaluate whether such software is properly "targeted" at foreigners.

            The House legislation also drastically extends the timeline for reviewing surveillance activities, potentially allowing the government to commence eavesdropping and then drag out judicial review for months. Under existing law, the government must obtain judicial approval within 72 hours of the start of emergency wiretapping. In contrast, the judicial review of "certifications" can stretch out as long as four months. After beginning eavesdropping, the government has a week to submit its "certification" to the FISA court, which has 30 days to review the application. If the judge finds problems with the certification, the government can continue eavesdropping for another 30 days before it is required to comply with the order. And the government can buy still more time by filing an appeal to the FISA Court of Review. The appeals court may take as long as 60 days to make its decision, and the government will often be allowed to continue eavesdropping throughout the process of judicial review. This means that in many cases, the government will have completed its spying activities long before the courts reach a decision on its legality.
            No "targeting" Americans

            The legislation does provide modestly enhanced protections for Americans living overseas. The "authorizations" described in the previous section are only available when they "target" those who are not American citizens or legal residents. When the target of an eavesdropping program is an American, the government must satisfy more stringent requirements, including the traditional requirement that the target is an "agent of a foreign power." The surveillance also must cease within seven days if judicial approval for it is not forthcoming.

            This section is a modest restriction on the government's prior eavesdropping powers. Traditionally, FISA did not govern purely overseas eavesdropping activities, even if they targeted American citizens. Under the new legislation, the government will need court approval to "target" Americans overseas, even when the surveillance is conducted overseas.

            However, as a practical matter, this enhancement of Americans' privacy rights may prove extremely limited. The government may not "target" Americans under the broad "authorizations" discussed in the previous section, and in some cases the government may discard information obtained about Americans as part of the required "minimization" procedures, but the government would retain significant latitude to decide which information it retains. The paradoxical consequence is that broader wiretapping orders may be approved more easily than narrower ones. For example, the government could not unilaterally "authorize" the "targeting" of a particular San Francisco resident's international communications. However, it could "authorize" a dragnet surveillance program that intercepted the international communications of all San Francisco residents under the pretext that it was "targeting" any foreign terrorists who might happen to communicate with San Francisco residents.

            This is particularly troubling when we remember that in 2002, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review held that FISA does not prohibit coordination between foreign intelligence gathering and domestic law enforcement. That suggests that the FBI could ask the NSA to tailor its filters to intercept evidence of Internet gambling, copyright infringement, or other ordinary crimes. The Americans whose communications were turned over could not be the "target" of the surveillance, but the House legislation requires only that foreign intelligence gathering be "a significant purpose" of eavesdropping programs. If a terrorist surveillance program also catches American citizens who are gambling or infringing copyright law, that's even better!


            Other provisions

            As has been widely reported, the legislation would grant broad, retroactive immunity to firms that participated in the president's warrantless surveillance program. The bar for granting immunity is extremely low: to receive immunity, the firm must merely demonstrate that it had received a letter from the government stating that the program was lawful. Since we already know that the program participants received such letters, there is no practical difference between this standard and blanket immunity.

            The legislation expands the list of people who can be spied on to include those engaged in "the international proliferation of weapons of mass destruction." And curiously, it has an extremely broad definition of "weapons of mass destruction." It includes not only nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, but also "any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas that is designed, intended, or has the capability to cause a mass casualty incident." As Wired's Jason Sigger points out, this is significantly broader than the traditional definition. The legislation mandates that the Inspectors General of each agency involved in FISA surveillance prepare reports to Congress detailing the nature and extent of post-September 11 surveillance activities.

            Democratic leaders have made much of a provision designating FISA (along with ordinary criminal wiretapping procedures) as the "exclusive means" for intercepting electronic communications. But as a ruling last week made clear, this provision is little more than window dressing. Republican-appointed judge Vaughn R. Walker ruled last week that the 1978 FISA statute established "the exclusive means for foreign intelligence surveillance activities to be conducted." If the president ignored the exclusivity provisions of the current iteration of FISA, it's not clear what is accomplished by adding another one.
            Compromise or capitulation?

            Democratic leaders have worked hard to portray the legislation as a compromise, but close examination of its provisions suggests that it is an unvarnished victory for President Bush and his allies in Congress. The legislation eliminates meaningful judicial oversight of eavesdropping between Americans citizen and foreigners located overseas and effectively legalizes dragnet surveillance of domestic-to-foreign traffic. It stretches out the judicial review process so much that the government will in many cases be able to complete its surveillance activities before the courts finish deciding on its legality. And Democratic leaders have capitulated on the immunity question, agreeing to language that would almost certainly lead to retroactive immunity for lawbreaking telecom companies.

            Many supporters of Barack Obama were dismayed last month when he announced that he would support the legislation. Indeed, more than 20,000 have joined a group on his campaign website urging him to reject the bill; the group is now the largest on his website. But thus far, Obama has maintained his support for the bill.

            Last week, an Obama surrogate insisted that "with FISA expiring," the bill was the best Democrats could hope to get. The only problem is that FISA isn't expiring. It was enacted in 1978 and is not scheduled to sunset. The Protect America Act did expire in March, but given that the Bush administration managed to prevent terrorist attacks under FISA for almost six years until last summer's passage of the Protect America Act, it's hard to be too alarmed about living under FISA again for the final six months of Pres. Bush's term.

            The Democrats' capitulation is particularly puzzling because, as we've pointed out before, the Democrats' firm stance on FISA this Spring turned out to be a political asset, not a liability. When House Democrats called Pres. Bush's bluff and allowed the Protect America Act to expire in March, it got a wave of positive coverage from the media, which pointed out that the PAA's expiration would have little effect on the government's ability to spy on terrorists. Now that Democratic leaders are switching sides yet again, we've seen the re-emergence of unflattering coverage focusing on the Democrats' weakness on national security issues and lack of party unity. Protecting civil liberties ought to be a matter of principle, but even if Democratic leaders are unmoved by civil liberties concerns, one might have expected them to stand up to the White House based on purely political motivations.

            Civil libertarians' last stand against expanded government surveillance will occur in the Senate, in a vote that is expected to occur this week. So far, the determined opposition of a small group of Senators led by Chris Dodd and Russ Feingold has managed to stall the legislation for a couple of weeks. Dodd has signaled that he will continue using every weapon at his disposal to stop the legislation. But with Democratic leaders lining up in support of the bill, Dodd and Feingold face an uphill battle.
            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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            • #7
              Problem is that if it doesn't go thru, then the administration is guilty of at least 30 felonies. My guess is that the dems don't want to give McCain any fuel for November- that and of course generous donations from lobbyists.
              I'm consitently stupid- Japher
              I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

              Comment


              • #8
                The only lining in this dark cloud is that, while the bill grants civil immunity, it doesn't allow for criminal immunity.
                I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dodd and Feingold can huff and puff all day long, but the whole thing is going through. The left should stop crying until next year when chunks of it come up again. Once 2009 comes around, the Dems can gut it to their hearts content. Reid said:

                  “Next year, for example, Congress will be required to revisit a number of provisions of the Patriot Act. That may provide a suitable occasion to review the related issues in this FISA bill.” (From here).

                  If my firm's client is any indication, the telcos have been itching to get something passed, even if was limited immunity. I can't count the number of times we've gotten an "all hands on deck" call requesting that we try to push the latest compromise with our hill contacts. They'd rather have this whole episode behind them. Dragging things out has been hugely detrimental to them.

                  P.S. Some lobbyists are giving, but we sure as hell haven't. Eeeevil contract lobbyists hate reaching into their own pocket to pull their clients' ass out of the fire.
                  Last edited by Timexwatch; July 8, 2008, 23:31.
                  If you look around and think everyone else is an *******, you're the *******.

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                  • #10
                    The telcos knew it was illegal when they did it. They should be dragged over the coals. Quest said no. The others should have also. Of course, Quest was destroyed for standing up to the government.
                    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                    • #11
                      Destroyed for standing up to the government or failed because they sucked as a company?
                      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                      • #12
                        Re: Where's the thread on the FISA bill?

                        Originally posted by Theben
                        Considering we're getting ready to gut the 4th Amendment, I figure someone would have something to say. And the dems are all for it.

                        Hopefully SCOTUS won't be too activist and will strike down the new law.
                        4th Amendment has already been gutted. Where have you been?
                        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                        • #13
                          Indiana.
                          I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                          I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The mid west is much more prone to privacy than other states, mainly because no one cares what we say.
                            Monkey!!!

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