So what DOES Obama stand for?

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Kidicious

But not enough guts to offer a solution of his own.

The word solution implies there's some sort of problem... I don't see that.

IIRC though Obama was for subsidies for corn-based ethanol, so his energy policies aren't exactly awesome either.

Why? I think a lot of people would benefit from a war between the US and China.

Who? The Iranians?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Victor Galis


The word solution implies there's some sort of problem... I don't see that.

IIRC though Obama was for subsidies for corn-based ethanol, so his energy policies aren't exactly awesome either.

There have been solutions since the 70s. No one ever liked them though.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Kidicious


There have been solutions since the 70s. No one ever liked them though.

Wait, what exactly are we talking about? You criticized him for not offering an alternative to the gas-tax holiday. That proposal isn't a solution to the energy problems the US is facing

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Taiwan to Red China, Noth Korea to a US-aligned united Korea. How good a deal does that sound?

Sounds fine. Taiwan and China are already coming closer peacefully. As China slowly slowly liberalizes, Taiwan will feel more comfortable with it. China may even reach the point where it no longer needs Taiwan to stoke nationalist sentiment and let it be.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
What else do you suggest?

Obama is coming in at the end of 35 years of energy neglect and 7 years after the Bush administration permitted the oil companies to write our energy policy. This problem wasn't caused by him.

The only possible "quick fix" is an investigation into whether there's been manipulation and price fixing. Obama (and many others) have called for this.

If there's been no manipulation, then this is a solely supply-and-demand problem which will need long-term solutions, i.e. alternative energy sources. Obama has called for these.

Investigations into price fixing is just political talk (lies). The only solution is price controls.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Kidicious
The only solution is price controls.

A short-term solution that leads to larger long-term problems.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Victor Galis


Wait, what exactly are we talking about? You criticized him for not offering an alternative to the gas-tax holiday. That proposal isn't a solution to the energy problems the US is facing

Well first you said there wasn't a problem. Then I said there has been an energy problem since the 70s, and that there have been solutions, but that nobody liked them. That's what we are talking about. No politicians have seriously taken on the problem from the 70s, because they don't try to.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


A short-term solution that leads to larger long-term problems.

Why doesn't he just tell the truth then, that the oil companies aren't fixing prices and he expects us to keep paying through the nose.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Kidicious
But not enough guts to offer a solution of his own.

I check with the link I posted above. Here's some of Obama's proposed solutions:

1) Help Detroit retool to make cars that use less gas.
2) Institute a cap-and-trade program
3) Invest $150 billionInvest over ten years to deploy clean technologies. Double spending on clean energy R&D.
4) Reduce consumption of foreign oil by 35% by 2030 [sounds to me like a goal more than a solution]
5) Deploy cellulosic ethanol
6) Increase fuel standards

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Investigations into price fixing is just political talk (lies). The only solution is price controls.

Solution to what?! Price controls are part of what's killing us.

Well first you said there wasn't a problem.

I assumed that your "problem" was $4 gas, which isn't a problem, it's a natural reflection of demand for a scarce commodity (well, ok there's some market failures involved).

Then I said there has been an energy problem since the 70s, and that there have been solutions, but that nobody liked them. That's what we are talking about. No politicians have seriously taken on the problem from the 70s, because they don't try to.

That's because none of those problems are likely to cause huge damage in a 4-8 year time frame. No president seems capable of dealing with problems that are longer term than that. It's a feature of the political system, not a personal failing.

Why doesn't he just tell the truth then, that the oil companies aren't fixing prices and he expects us to keep paying through the nose.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


I check with the link I posted above. Here's some of Obama's proposed solutions:

1) Help Detroit retool to make cars that use less gas.

Corporate subsidies
Also, not significant

2) Institute a cap-and-trade program

Good idea to fight global warming, but not significant. Also, might not go through congress.

3) Invest $150 billionInvest over ten years to deploy clean technologies. Double spending on clean energy R&D.

Increase taxes. I have an idea fix the price of gas and let's see if the oil companies can figure out how to reduce prices so they can make more profit. Then we make money instead of paying for it.

4) Reduce consumption of foreign oil by 35% by 2030 [sounds to me like a goal more than a solution]

Yes, not a solution, but none of this is.

5) Deploy cellulosic ethanol

Unkown if workable.

6) Increase fuel standards

Duh, we've been doing that.

[Victor Galis]

Also, I personally really hate the idea of cap-and-trade because it requires the government to come up with a desirable level of emissions.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
Solution to what?! Price controls are part of what's killing us.

What price controls?

I assumed that your "problem" was $4 gas, which isn't a problem, it's a natural reflection of demand for a scarce commodity (well, ok there's some market failures involved).

No. There are no market failures involved. There isn't enough cheap oil anymore. That's a problem, and the market can't fix it. The market isn't failing, because it's not the solution.

That's because none of those problems are likely to cause huge damage in a 4-8 year time frame. No president seems capable of dealing with problems that are longer term than that. It's a feature of the political system, not a personal failing.

Other countries seem to be doing just fine really.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Kidicious

What price controls?

Middle Eastern countries largely subsidize their gasoline. Global demand isn't as elastic as it should be. If those places consumed less due to higher prices, prices wouldn't have risen as much. I believe Indonesia is another big one. I don't have a full list of such countries. Subsidies in the states would basically push the price through the roof as the reduction in consumption that higher prices normally bring wouldn't happen.

No. There are no market failures involved.

See above about subsidies in certain countries. Also, state owned corporations that aren't propperly maintaing or expanding capacity in response to higher prices might arguably be a market-failure.

There isn't enough cheap oil anymore. That's a problem, and the market can't fix it. The market isn't failing, because it's not the solution.

Umm... if there's not enough oil, and the price is going up, that's not a problem. That's the market doing its thing. Unless you're proposing some sort of rationing, there just isn't enough oil. Who doesn't get the oil they want?

Other countries seem to be doing just fine really.

Yeah, other countries seem to be better governed in other ways too

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
Middle Eastern countries largely subsidize their gasoline. Global demand isn't as elastic as it should be. If those places consumed less due to higher prices, prices wouldn't have risen as much. I believe Indonesia is another big one. I don't have a full list of such countries. Subsidies in the states would basically push the price through the roof as the reduction in consumption that higher prices normally bring wouldn't happen.

Oh, Ok. That's what you are talking about.

Unless you're proposing some sort of rationing, there just isn't enough oil. Who doesn't get the oil they want?

I believe the oil companies should be nationalised actually, so that the money funds the government instead of the rich.

I also believe more refining capacity should be made and the government should take direct action to create renewable energy and reduce energy use per capita.