Liberal Fascism

[BeBMan]

I'm all innocent!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
The claim made by the person who wrote that alternativehistory piece we've both quoted from is not that the Nazi policies were inferior to "free market policies" (by which I think you mean old-style laize-faire policies) but rather that they are inferior to "modern counter-cyclical economic policies" - and that the Nazis did not, in fact, preside over an economic miracle. They did so-so. Further, what they did wasn't much different than the policies they inherited in 1933 (until the change in 1936 of course, which I think you and I agree about).

That's the claim, and it sounds right to me, based on what I've seen (either during our current discussion, or back in school).

-Arrian

WFT?!!! You said in the first place that the recovery was based on debt that would have ruined the economy in due time.

I'll tell you what. Why don't we go about this different and see how that works? You tell me what your argument is and I'll see if I want to argue against it.

[Arrian]

See post #149.

My original comment was my general recollection from my history studies (now at least 10 years ago), and as we discussed, was more about 1936 onward than 1933-1936. I'm happy to concede that (as I already have).

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

You still haven't made any point at all then.

[Barnabas]

When will Americans adopt the right meanings of the word "liberal" and "football"?

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Barnabas
When will Americans adopt the right meanings of the word "liberal" and "football"?

When we can no longer nuke the rest of you back to the Stone Age.

[Arrian]

[Krill]

[q=Pat]Failing? You shouldn't go through life trying to "win" threads, the futility should be obvious.[/q]

What's the quote? Even if you win the argument, you look retarded? I honestly can't remember it.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kidicious


You have to remember who is writing the history books, neo-liberal economists.

Those neo-liberal economists like Eric Hobsbawm ? Also known as a Marxist historian...

Please identify for us the neo-liberal economists here:

Alan Bullock

Elizabeth Wiskemann

S. J. Woolf

A. J. Nicholls

Harold James

Jack Snyder.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You still haven't made any point at all then.

As opposed to the point you made (or thought you made) which has been shown to be wrong, even by just referring to the source you yourself used to back it up.

The beginning of WWII at last brought the Great Depression to an end. Prices, wages, employment and production surged throughout the world.

The economies of Germany and Japan experienced growth without development- a vast expansion of resources by conquest and of workers by enslavement. Their swollen economies became in some ways more primitive than before.

from 'The Great Wave', see below.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kidicious


My view is that planned economies collapse due to war. War strains resources and causes shortages.

The way Stalin's Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States collapsed ? All to a lesser or greater degree already had or introduced more planning into their economies in the face of conflict with the Axis powers.

Of course, both Nazi Germany and Japan also had elements of planning in their economies too, before and after war started with the Allies.

Italy and Germany took the dark road to fascism, which in economic terms was an unstable combination of private ownership and public control, feudal fiefdoms and bureaucratic regulation, national autarchy and international conquest.

Fascist economies were stimulated by public works and military spending, but German prices remained depressed throughout the 1930s.

Old economic problems persisted and new ones were added.

The economics of European fascism and Japanese militarism, as well as their ideologies, drove their leaders to embark upon ever more desperate adventures.

'The Price Revolution Of The Twentieth Century' from 'The Great Wave' by David Hackett Fischer.

Germany had full employment when they started rearming.

Really ? Would that be 1933, 1934 or 1935 ? Because we can't tell from any of your posts.

[Kidlicious]

We just need the numbers. Without them nothing is proven. It would probably be better to look at some professional journals instead of internet sources and general history books written by people who don't really know what they are talking about.

[Kidlicious]

"[in 1933] Total production was up 25% above 1928 levels (and up around 100% from what it was at the height of the depression in 1932),"

That's from the source I quoted. It doesn't mention growth rates, but you won't find many economies that have grown faster, if any.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by molly bloom
Really ? Would that be 1933, 1934 or 1935 ? Because we can't tell from any of your posts.

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/TCEH/Slouch_Purge15.html

By the autumn of 1936 the problem of unemployment had been largely licked,

The Hereditary Farm Law of September 1933 transformed all farms of less than 300 acres into hereditary estates that must be passed down undivided to the next male heir. Only an Aryan German who could prove "purity" of blood back to 1800 could own such a farm. Such a farmer's estate could not be sold or seized for debt or bankruptcy. And farm prices were raised an average of twenty percent.

Schacht was one of the few finance ministers to take advantage of the freedom provided by the end of the gold standard to keep interest rates low and government budget deficits high: massive public works funded by large budget deficits. The consequence was an extremely rapid decline in unemployment--the most rapid decline in unemployment in any country during the Great Depression.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by molly bloom
As opposed to the point you made (or thought you made) which has been shown to be wrong, even by just referring to the source you yourself used to back it up.

The following statistics are from International Historical Statistics: Europe 1750-1988,” by B.R. Mitchell (ISBN 1-56159-038-X), Third Edition, 1992, Stockton Press, New York, New York:

Output of Pig Iron (in 10^3 metric tons)

1933 - 5,247
1934 - 8,717
1935 - 12,846
1936 - 15,302

Output of Crude Steel (in 10^3 metric tons)

1933 - 7,617
1934 - 11,923
1935 - 16,447
1936 - 19,208

Output of Coal (in 10^6 metric tons)

1933 - 8.9
1934 - 11.4
1935 - 14.3
1936 - 17.6

Output of Electric Energy (in Gigawatt Hours)

1933 - 23.46
1934 - 30.66
1935 - 35.70
1936 - 42.49

Output of Motor Vehicles (in thousands)

1933 - 105
1934 - 174
1935 - 247
1936 - 301