Apple to fool public for 207th time.

[snoopy369]

I'm just saying I wouldn't assume that site is a perfect comparison (especially since it's just voluntary posts, which often are by a self-selecting group)...

Try to imagine what you'd post if the numbers were higher on Apple and lower on Microsoft, and then pretend I posted it instead... maybe that would be easier?

[Asher]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I'm just saying I wouldn't assume that site is a perfect comparison (especially since it's just voluntary posts, which often are by a self-selecting group)...

Try to imagine what you'd post if the numbers were higher on Apple and lower on Microsoft, and then pretend I posted it instead... maybe that would be easier?

No, it'd be valid. Frankly, I don't work at MS because I don't find the salary competitive. You get paid more working at high-end consulting shops that partner with MS.

The problem is the sample size is larger than you would probably think, and your excuse of self-selection bias applies to all of the other companies -- and the others are all in line, Apple is not.

[Asher]

Additionally the detailed reviews by employees of Apple also echo these numbers.

“Management burns through employees with no regard to their long-term value—many management decisions seem to be based upon how long the employees involved will put up with the demands placed on them.

Depending on your exact job and how little time is left in the product cycle, vacation time and even weekends are privileges that you may not be given the opportunity to afford. If WWDC is rescheduled at the last minute, for example, hundreds of engineers will be asked to change their vacations, even if they've already made plans (and paid for tickets).

At the end of a cycle, a $20 bottle of wine or a $50 iPod shuffle reflect the gratitude you'll receive, and the value of your work to your management. It is against Apple policy for your name to be recognized externally; only Steve Jobs' name, or the names of those he picks to introduce them, can be associated with a product release.

At least one division was giving less than 3% in average yearly salary increases to critical senior engineers, while the company's profits soared. And if you're a manager, it's not discouraged for you to go several years without accepting a raise, just so you can use the budget savings for your staff's salaries.

It's a well-known secret that the best way to get a large raise and promotion at Apple is to leave and be hired back a few years later into the new position.”

“There has been a consensus for a long time, even its among top engineers, that Apple does not tend to promote people or compensate them fairly. Have you ever seen Apple on the Forbes 100 Best Places to Work?' Enough said. You will be just a number to them if you decide to join their ranks. The focus is purely on product and the bottom line, which of course is no surprise in the corporate world. But if you're a corporate hooch, I guess you won't mind that. 'Think Different!' Ahem. And here's some juicy gossip: Steve is afraid of donuts! How do I know? Because he banned them, along with balloons from Macs cafe. He also has a fear of buttons. Origin of this phobia - unknown. But here is what you should be afraid of my friends; the tendency that Apple and just about every company these days has to keep Permatemps. You may want to board the Mother Ship so badly it hurts, but take my advice and do it the regular way, through the Apple hiring process. Don't go through an 'agency.' Basically they are in the business of laundering...people. These are shady operations that are not even real companies and are in cahoots with Apple to deny you benefits or any basic rights, all while forcing you to do the same work and keep exactly the same hours as employees. For what? Surely not for your benefit.”

“Apple corporate memory is very spotty at best strewn across emails and bug reports and the occassional standalone blog. It is very difficult to come up to speed. Information is also highly restricted by project rather than cross-functional which makes work difficult and design from foresight very difficult. Every part of the entire software stack is modified at once throughout a new OS product / version cycle including dev tools. QA is much, much too sparse and Apple depends on all devs eating the dog food while trying to meet their own very aggressive schedules. In the groups I experienced their is very little real design except in the heads of individual engineers. Their software stack sucks. Objective C is archaic and long of tooth as a dev environment. Every developer regardless of seniority and experience is expected to sling fixed bugs (radars) at a certain rate to be seen as worth keeping around. Everyone has to prove they are a good Apple drone before they can do anything creative. And/or they have to work nights and weekends (if they don't already have to to even keep up) to do something that gets them beyond drone mode and have some measure of control over their time and destiny. The people that make it seem to all work 60 hours or more a week.”

And my theory about people being affected by the RDF also stands:

“Apple doesn't just have employees; they have True Believers. Most people begin working for the company because they're long-term Apple customers. Some grew up hoping to work for Apple one day"

Think about it. If Agathon had any real skills and Apple wanted to hire him for $30K less than MS, do you think he'd work for MS?

[DanS]

I was under the impression that Google had sub-par salaries, but made up for it by giving its employees good stuff, like free lunches.

Regarding Apple (with Jobs at the helm), they consistently put out truly great products. I don't doubt that it's a crappy place at which to work, so it sure is interesting...

[Asher]

Originally posted by DanS
I was under the impression that Google had sub-par salaries, but made up for it by giving its employees good stuff, like free lunches.

Not sure where you got that impression. It's well known they compensate very, very well...in addition to the perks.

[snoopy369]

Asher, as you well know sample size and sample self-selection does not mean 'everyone is off the same', but simply that you can't say anything significant about the data one way or the other. Even fifty or sixty employees is nothing, and who knows about the data... I'm just saying that the numbers don't add up to what you're describing. If the salary differential is truly that large, then there is a reason for it above and beyond people being morons. Plenty of people are morons when it comes to work, but most of them know about salary and care about that quite a lot...

I think the 'true believers' is probably more true with their retail employees than their software engineers; but then again, who knows? Anyhow, Jobs should be applauded for being able to pay people less than they're worth in that case.

The stuff you (Asher) posted above about Apple is equally available on MS and pretty much any other company (different specifics, but equally irritated). There are always unhappy employees

Dan, I'd assume it is not a crappy place to work, given the salaries. Eliminating the what must still be relatively small (less than half certainly) of 'true believers', the rest would leave for higher salaries if there weren't other reasons to stay...

[Asher]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Asher, as you well know sample size and sample self-selection does not mean 'everyone is off the same', but simply that you can't say anything significant about the data one way or the other. Even fifty or sixty employees is nothing, and who knows about the data... I'm just saying that the numbers don't add up to what you're describing. If the salary differential is truly that large, then there is a reason for it above and beyond people being morons. Plenty of people are morons when it comes to work, but most of them know about salary and care about that quite a lot...

Why do you think most people know what other people make in other states at other companies?

There's 350+ salary submissions for each company. There's an adequate sample size to draw comparisons.

Dan, I'd assume it is not a crappy place to work, given the salaries.

You're making a lot of assumptions. Apple is well known to be a difficult/crappy place to work because Steve Jobs is widely known as an egomaniacal *******. He'll yell at you in public for anything, he'll put his name on all patents Apple has even if he had **** all to do with it, etc. He can crank out some nice products these days, but it takes a toll on the workers. This is reflected en masse on the 150+ reviews of Apple on glassdoor as well, in addition to several books published on Jobs and his work environment.

[snoopy369]

I'm one to believe that I don't know everything... but that numbers rarely lie. Either Apple employees are not well reflected salary-wise on glassdoor.com, or there is a reason Apple is able to pay people less; and assuming people are morons is usually not the answer. Except when it is, of course. But it's not here.

[Asher]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I'm one to believe that I don't know everything... but that numbers rarely lie. Either Apple employees are not well reflected salary-wise on glassdoor.com, or there is a reason Apple is able to pay people less; and assuming people are morons is usually not the answer. Except when it is, of course. But it's not here.

You seem to be assuming that Apple does not have high turnover. Because of the products they release, they have a lot of people wanting to work for them.

I think it's perfectly reasonable that people work for Apple, get burnt out/pissed off, and leave. I know at least one person who did work for Apple as a dev, he lasted a year and a half. But that sample isn't anything like glassdoor.com's.

[snoopy369]

High turnover is certainly a potential element of it, but high turnover is (usually) a bad thing (even with a lot of people wanting to work for you - you have to train people, which is expensive, and you lose the specialized knowledge of senior staff).

That would certainly be an interesting statistic

[DanS]

Originally posted by Mr Snuggles
Not sure where you got that impression.

I read it on the internet, so it must be true.

[Asher]

The timing is funny -- a guy I worked with the past 2 years just left the company to move to Mountain View and work for Google.

I guarantee you they pay very well.