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What's cap-and-trade without a mandatory cap?

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  • #1

    What's cap-and-trade without a mandatory cap?

    From a press conference this morning:

    QUESTION: The European Union has set mandatory targets on renewable energy. Is that something you would consider in a McCain administration? [...]

    MCCAIN: Sure. I believe in the cap-and-trade system, as you know. I would not at this time make those -- impose a mandatory cap at this time. But I do believe that we have to establish targets for reductions of greenhouse gas emissions over time, and I think those can be met.
    http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/6/16/124515/466


    n.b. McCain's plan that he just released a few weeks ago, as well as legislation that he cosponsored last year, imposes mandatory caps.
    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
    -Bokonon
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  • #2
    Without a cap it isn't cap & trade.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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    • #3
      Uh, clearly...
      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
      -Bokonon

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      • #4
        But seriously, what the hell does he mean? As the link documents, he has exhibited this confusion before at least a few times...
        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
        -Bokonon

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        • #5
          In all likelyhood he supports a cap, but wants the votes of people that do not.

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          • #6
            It'd be one thing for him to be lying about his policy (and he did put out policy to this effect, even if it handed out carbon credits instead of auctioning them). But this is completely incoherent. What does cap and trade without a cap actually mean?
            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
            -Bokonon

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            • #7
              It sounds like he's saying he would eventually support a cap (and trade), but it has to be something worked towards over time.

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              • #8
                That's a charitable explanation, but there are other times he has said something similar where that explanation doesn't make sense. For example:

                It's not quote mandatory caps. It's cap-and-trade, OK. It's not mandatory caps to start with. It's cap-and-trade. That's very different. OK, because that's a gradual reduction in greenhouse-gas emissions. So please portray it as cap-and-trade. That's the way I call it.
                Or:

                Russert: Senator McCain, you are in favor of mandatory caps.

                McCain: No, I'm in favor of cap-and-trade. And Joe Lieberman and I, one of my favorite Democrats and I, have proposed that -- and we did the same thing with acid rain.

                And all we are saying is, "Look, if you can reduce your greenhouse gas emissions, you earn a credit. If somebody else is going to increase theirs, you can sell it to them." And, meanwhile, we have a gradual reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.


                And of course, that contradicts the policy that he put out just recently.
                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                -Bokonon

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                • #9
                  Well then by "cap" he's talking a soft-cap rather than a hard-cap. (I don't know what policy he put out just recently, so can't speak on that point.)

                  A hard cap would be one where you simply are not allowed to exceed the threshold. A soft cap is one where you can exceed the threshold, but only if someone else allows you to use part of their threshold.

                  If you're talking about the overall economy, the "cap and trade" would be a hard cap. But it would be a soft cap in relation to individual entities. Perhaps that is where the confusion is coming from?

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                  • #10
                    It sounds like he is talking just the carrot, and not the stick.
                    "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                    • #11
                      Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

                      Well then by "cap" he's talking a soft-cap rather than a hard-cap. (I don't know what policy he put out just recently, so can't speak on that point.)

                      A hard cap would be one where you simply are not allowed to exceed the threshold. A soft cap is one where you can exceed the threshold, but only if someone else allows you to use part of their threshold.

                      If you're talking about the overall economy, the "cap and trade" would be a hard cap. But it would be a soft cap in relation to individual entities. Perhaps that is where the confusion is coming from?
                      Except the EU obviously doesn't have a "hard cap" with respect to individual entities. It's a cap and trade system as well.
                      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                      -Bokonon

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                      • #12
                        It sounds like he is talking just the carrot, and not the stick.
                        What's the carrot (in cap-and-trade minus cap)?
                        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                        -Bokonon

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ramo
                          Except the EU obviously doesn't have a "hard cap" with respect to individual entities. It's a cap and trade system as well.
                          I already detailed the difference between how you'd view such a cap across an entire economy (hard) and in regards to a specific entity (soft).

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                          • #14
                            What's the carrot (in cap-and-trade minus cap)?
                            The carrot is the credit (tax credit?) you would give someone for complying. Though that is just a cap, not a trade so meh.
                            "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                            • #15
                              I already detailed the difference between how you'd view such a cap across an entire economy (hard) and in regards to a specific entity (soft).
                              And my post was a response that "explanation." Again, the EU system is exactly the sort of cap and trade system with a hard cap across the economy, and a soft cap on a specific entity.

                              The carrot is the credit (tax credit?) you would give someone for complying. Though that is just a cap, not a trade so meh.
                              I don't know whose policy you're describing, but it isn't McCain's.
                              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                              -Bokonon

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