Hurray for High Gas Prices!

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Darius871


Nice dream, just wake me up when more than a third of the U.S. population has access to any type of public transportation, and those few areas with reasonably accessible public transportation embark on the herculean expansion projects necessary to accomodate such a drastic increase in volume.


Anyway, OP

Given that 75% of the population lives in urban areas, that is easily met. What is lacking is access to decent public transportation, and the fault of that is conservatism, for a variety of reasons.

However, a massive expansion of public transportation infrastructure would help the economy, by creating productive jobs, lowering transportation costs, easing pollution, etc.

[Wezil]

Victor - That's fine thinking long term but what about the short time pain many will feel? If you assert the cities are poorly planned then you have to concede people are driving because they have to. The additional cost won't be optional.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Wezil
Victor - That's fine thinking long term but what about the short time pain many will feel? If you assert the cities are poorly planned then you have to concede people are driving because they have to. The additional cost won't be optional.

To make an omelet you have to break some eggs .

Though seriously, short term pain is necessary in order make some big, IMO necessary changes.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


To make an omelet you have to break some eggs .

Though seriously, short term pain is necessary in order make some big, IMO necessary changes.

So heres the plan, we're gonna massively raise taxes to pay for busses (thats always good for the economy), and while that gets "organized" by the government over the next few years, we're gonna make low income workers choose between, gas, food, and welfare.

Could you ask for a better plan for revolution? I can understand why you'd support it.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


To make an omelet you have to break some eggs .

Though seriously, short term pain is necessary in order make some big, IMO necessary changes.

I'll put you in the category that wouldn't be significantly affected.

[Imran Siddiqui]

A gradual raise in gas tax wouldn't cause anything close to revolution. The poor already put up with an insane amount of bull**** (their programs being cut while richer folk get tax cuts, etc).

If you coordinate it with perhaps a lower income tax break (and make that CLEAR), it would help ease the burden somewhat.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Given that 75% of the population lives in urban areas, that is easily met. What is lacking is access to decent public transportation, and the fault of that is conservatism, for a variety of reasons.

Only if you accept the census bureau's utterly ridiculous classification of even outlying suburbs as "urban." The sad practical reality is that except in the most progressive of American metro areas, a majority of so-called "urban" residents would have to travel at least five miles just to get to the nearest bus or train route, assuming it even has regular stops instead of the express park-and-rides more common in suburbs.

Accomodating the entirety of a sprawling, primarily suburban metro area (i.e. the entirety of the 75% to which you refer) would require a tax hike so colossal that it'd dissuade far more people than just "conservatives." Sad but true. People would rather just pretend gas prices are something a presidential candidate can change. ( to that!)

[Wezil]

Imran - I'm not talking about revolution just lowered standards of living (how much depending on the circumstances). Keep in mind, what Victor is talking about will not happen in anything resembling a short time. Redesigning our cities in NA could take decades if not generations.

Most ambitious "green" plans call for some form of tax "shifting" to help alleviate the pain inherent in such a radical shift but in this day most people are rather cynical at any government plan touted as being revenue neutral.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Wezil
I'll put you in the category that wouldn't be significantly affected.

On the other hand doing nothing means that people continue to live 50 miles from work, making them be "significantly affected" when gas prices go up.... meaning, you are arguing that absolutely nothing can be done.

Part of the problem is that cheap gas has that it has created this situation where people live insanely far away from where they normally go, causing congestion, insurance, and environmental damage.

Really, without raising the price, and making gas more expensive, these problems will not end. Already the raising of prices has promoted mass transit use. All sorts of mass transit systems in major cities are breaking records for ridership (a good thing).

And of course I'm not significantly affected... I have a short drive to the train station (which I've taken since I've had the job).

[Wezil]

I understand how we got where we are. My quite simple point is that while people are cheering on higher gas prices I ask them to consider for a moment the effect of higher prices on people that have no choice but to drive.

Personally I don't give a damn. My employer pays almost all my fuel.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Wezil
Imran - I'm not talking about revolution just lowered standards of living (how much depending on the circumstances).

I was responding to Spencer's assertion. And yes, for a bit, we'd have some lower standards of living (relatively speaking). But gas is already $4/gal around here and while there has been some decline in the standard of living, it is not that much at all (can't blame the upcoming recession based on the housing market on gas prices , though I'll admit it doesn't help things... though a good part of high gas prices in the US these days is the weak dollar).

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Wezil
I understand how we got where we are. My quite simple point is that while people are cheering on higher gas prices I ask them to consider for a moment the effect of higher prices on people that have no choice but to drive.

Oh, I do realize it'll have a big effect... but it'll also entice them to not buy the new version of the SUV or Pickup Truck they are driving and instead get a sedan or something.

When you have to make necessary changes, there is always someone who gets hurt.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I'm with SpencerH and Darius on this one, I must say. It's quite unsurprising that the "hurrah for high gas prices" punditry tends to live in the Northeast corridor, which is just abot the only part of the U.S. where one can live a life that isn't entirely based on driving.

Unfortunately, Americans have, for the last 20 years, been moving out of the Northeast and into the Sun Belt, where places are not merely car-friendly, they're car-mandatory; they also have been moving farther and farther away from city centers, and thus farther and farther away from any real public transit.

This really does screw the poor. That may be inevitable, but it's unseemly to be happy about it.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Wezil
Victor - That's fine thinking long term but what about the short time pain many will feel? If you assert the cities are poorly planned then you have to concede people are driving because they have to. The additional cost won't be optional.

I live in downtown Montreal and am heavily invested in an income trust that generates its revenue from Alberta oil and gas. I also have a deep hatred of suburbs and those who choose to live in them. I may not be the most unbiased of people in this thread.

Here's the problem: to reverse the trend to suburbanization there will be pain. If the trend isn't reversed now and we don't find a suitable replacement to oil, that's going to be some massive pain down the line.

Could you ask for a better plan for revolution? I can understand why you'd support it.

I could ask that we increase subsidies so that the whole of the corn crop is turned into ethanol.

understand how we got where we are. My quite simple point is that while people are cheering on higher gas prices I ask them to consider for a moment the effect of higher prices on people that have no choice but to drive.

Those people had a choice of places to live to some extent. They also had a choice when they bought cars to some extent. The fuel economy of most american cars is pitiful.

Unfortunately, Americans have, for the last 20 years, been moving out of the Northeast and into the Sun Belt, where places are not merely car-friendly, they're car-mandatory; they also have been moving farther and farther away from city centers, and thus farther and farther away from any real public transit.

So now I'm supposed to feel sorry for these people? Seems like they've made their beds and should now lie in them.

This really does screw the poor. That may be inevitable, but it's unseemly to be happy about it.

It's not unseemly to be happy about the decline of suburbs and giant SUVs.

[Theben]

Screw hybrids, we need to get back to 100% electric cars that recharge from an environmentally 'safe' source.