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  • Texas FLDS Raid "legally and factually insufficient".

    Court overrules Texas sect raid

    Members of the sect deny abusing their children
    An appeal court has ruled that US officials had no right to seize 463 children from a polygamist sect in western Texas last month.

    The court said that the reasons given for the children's removal were "legally and factually insufficient".

    But it did not immediately order the return of the children to the ranch.

    In April, officials raided a compound of the sect, saying young girls were being forced into marriage and sex. The children were placed into foster care.

    But the Texas Third Appeal Court ruled that officials failed to demonstrate the children were in any immediate danger, which is the only legally allowable reason for taking children from their homes without court proceedings.

    Confusion

    The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has denied abuse and says it is being persecuted.

    Correspondents say the case, which began with a raid on 3 April, has been marked by confusion.

    So far, 168 mothers and 69 fathers of the children have been identified - reflecting the polygamist practices of the sect - the Associated Press news agency reports.

    More than 100 children have still not been matched with mothers.

    Some of the parents say they do not know where their children have been placed, while others have complained that their sons and daughters are living at different locations, forcing them to criss-cross Texas to see them.

    The children were taken from the sect's Yearning For Zion ranch

    Officials have said that several of the sect members they had listed as minors are in fact adults.

    They said the situation was complicated because some women and children had given different names and lied about ages.

    Initially, officials said more than half of the underage girls were either mothers or were pregnant.

    The legal age of sexual consent in Texas is 17 and polygamy is illegal in the US.

    The children were removed from the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado after someone called a domestic abuse hotline claiming to be a pregnant 16-year-old abused by a much older husband.

    The girl has never been found and authorities are investigating whether the calls were a hoax.

    Earlier this month, investigators said they had found signs of physical injuries among the children, but added it was unclear whether these were due to abuse.

    Members live in large extended families, making it hard to determine exact parenthood, and the state is using DNA tests in its investigation.

    The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) is an offshoot of the Mormon Church.

    It broke away from the mainstream Mormons more than a century ago.

    FLDS members are taught that a man must marry at least three wives in order to ascend to heaven.

    The church denies forcing young girls into polygamy.

  • #2
    Yeah, when I first heard about that raid it struck me rather lacking in evidence. I'm no apologist for the FLDS, but one anonymous phone call...

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

    Comment


    • #3
      Although, in fairness, it was not the call that set out the seizure of the children. It was the pregnant kiddies walking around the compound.

      Comment


      • #4
        I wonder what they would do if a father said in the deliver room he would let his newborn daughter get brutally raped on her 11th birthday. It's pretty much the same thing with these kids.
        "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
        "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
        "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
        "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

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        • #5
          Appeals Court is wrong.
          Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
          "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
          He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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          • #6
            ...although all it appears to be saying is that, to take children away without a court hearing, there needs to be a threat of imminent harm.

            That implies that, if there's a demonstrable future threat, a court may take away the children.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SlowwHand
              Appeals Court is wrong.
              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Zkribbler
                ...although all it appears to be saying is that, to take children away without a court hearing, there needs to be a threat of imminent harm.

                That implies that, if there's a demonstrable future threat, a court may take away the children.
                One could say that sexually molesting minors is imminent threat of harm.
                Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                Comment


                • #9
                  There was clearly a future threat, as shown by preggo preteens. I don't see what the issue is.
                  "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
                  "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
                  "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
                  "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Imminent != future. The court needed to be involved in order to take away the children, BEFORE the raid. (That said, they could still take away the children...)

                    I probably agree, that they were incorrect in doing the raid without court proceedings (even closed-door secret court, if there was a concern of a Koresh type incident). There was nothing that was going to suddenly change (AFAIK), and thus the extra couple of days' wait wouldn't make a difference. Sure, they were molesting young girls, but they'd been doing it for months... a few extra days to make sure they were doing things right wouldn't hurt.

                    This is why competent District Attorneys hate police officers sometimes... (no idea who was involved in this of course, just a general statement)
                    <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                    I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by snoopy369
                      Imminent != future. The court needed to be involved in order to take away the children, BEFORE the raid. (That said, they could still take away the children...)

                      I probably agree, that they were incorrect in doing the raid without court proceedings (even closed-door secret court, if there was a concern of a Koresh type incident). There was nothing that was going to suddenly change (AFAIK), and thus the extra couple of days' wait wouldn't make a difference. Sure, they were molesting young girls, but they'd been doing it for months... a few extra days to make sure they were doing things right wouldn't hurt.

                      This is why competent District Attorneys hate police officers sometimes... (no idea who was involved in this of course, just a general statement)
                      QFT
                      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                      • #12
                        I say bull. A group which has a 100 year history of systematically sexually molesting children clearly should not be allowed to have children and ALL children should be removed from the clutches of such a predatory group.
                        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                        • #13
                          I actually agree with Oerdin somehow.
                          "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
                          "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
                          "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
                          "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Oerdin
                            I say bull. A group which has a 100 year history of systematically sexually molesting children clearly should not be allowed to have children and ALL children should be removed from the clutches of such a predatory group.
                            Just because we do not like the activity doesn't mean that we can sweep away Constitutional rights. Things like this lead us down a slope where rights are abrogated for all sorts of things because we did it in cases such as this one.

                            Yes, even child molesting polygamists should have their rights protected by forcing law enforcement to go through the courts first. We must protect the rights of even the hated and wrong so that we all have them from now unto the future.
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm not saying they don't have rights. I'm saying they're criminals who belong in jail and that the rights of children to not be molested must be protected.
                              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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