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  • Echelon eat your heart out



    Government may hold phone, email records

    DETAILS of every phone call, email and period of time spent on the internet by the public would be held on a British government database under a plan to combat crime and terrorism.

    Internet service providers (ISPs) and telecommunications companies would hand over the records to the Home Office, who would hold them for at least a year, The Times reported today.

    Police and security services would be able to access the information with permission from the courts.

    The proposal is part of a plan aimed at creating uniform record-keeping following the terrorist bombings on London's public transport system on July 7, 2005.

    Since last October, telecoms companies have been required to keep records of phone calls and text messages for 12 months and police and security services can access them with a warrant issued by the courts.

    Under the new proposals, that requirement would extend to internet, email and voice-over-internet use and the records would be held by the Government, rather than individual companies.

    Home Office officials have reportedly discussed the option of the national database with telecoms companies and ISPs in preparation for a data communications Bill to be included in the Queen's Speech in November.

    But the plan has not been sent to ministers yet.

    Assistant Information Commissioner Jonathan Bamford raised concerns over a centralised database.

    "We are not aware of any justification for the State to hold every UK citizens' phone and internet records,'' he told The Times.

    "Holding large collections of data is always risky - the more data that is collected and stored, the bigger the problem when the data is lost, traded or stolen.''

    A Home Office spokesman told the newspaper the Bill was needed to reflect changes in communication that would "increasingly undermine our current capabilities to obtain communications data and use it to protect the public''.


    I would be worried if I thought that they had the technical ability to make it work. Secondly of course, those who are likely to commit relevant crimes are generally pretty good at hiding their trails, so my biggest concern, once again with such silliness, is excessive cost for something that won't work.
    One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

  • #2
    The Merkel regime and its cronies in the parliament introduced this as a German law since last January. A mass complaint of unconstitutionality is pending; yours truly has signed it too.

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    • #3
      I thought better of Ecthy
      Blah

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      • #4
        Lame isn't it.

        I don't think complaining is going to do any good. We are entering a period of increased authoritarianism, and most of the population seems fine with it. It's getting close to quit-work-and-go-live-in-the-woods time.

        Interestingly, a couple of weeks ago New Zealand's Echelon base was broken into and vandalised by three people including a Catholic Priest. They managed to deflate one of the giant bubbles that hides an antenna. Surprisingly, few New Zealanders care that this base is being used to spy on them, and that even our own government doesn't really know what it is used for a lot of the time.

        I hate the thing. I wish they'd close it down and leave the spying to the Australians.
        Only feebs vote.

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        • #5

          I would be worried if I thought that they had the technical ability to make it work. Secondly of course, those who are likely to commit relevant crimes are generally pretty good at hiding their trails, so my biggest concern, once again with such silliness, is excessive cost for something that won't work.
          Mmm. Maybe not? How many of Osama Bin Busybody's men do you think has a degree in computer science? Sure there's probably a couple, but not every guy with a turban knows how to hack his way around the internets. Thus people are better protected from the incompetent, ignorant fundamentalists that don't know how to cover their tracks properly.
          "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

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          • #6
            You don't need to be a hacker. There are simple methods that can be employed.

            If they are truly incompetent or naive, then the database wouldn't be needed as they would be observed quite easily through other cheaper means.
            One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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            • #7
              Aside from the question whther this is needed or not - I wouldn't underestimate the terrist's abilities. Several of the guys we know from Sep 2001 did study technical and engineer stuff abroad (though AFAIK not exactly compsci - but that doesn't generally rule out the possibility). IIRC one of the main counter arguments against further gov measures like those from the op is that those who would be the primary targets of such action (org crime, terrorism) often would be able to find ways to get around these measures.
              Blah

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Agathon
                Lame isn't it.

                I don't think complaining is going to do any good. We are entering a period of increased authoritarianism, and most of the population seems fine with it. It's getting close to quit-work-and-go-live-in-the-woods time.
                I don't think the population is fine with it. I think they're so defeated that they've either become apathetic or they care but they feel that the battle is lost and just accept it.
                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                  I don't think the population is fine with it. I think they're so defeated that they've either become apathetic or they care but they feel that the battle is lost and just accept it.
                  Oh, believe me, it's fine with it. Because the majority is dumb. If the government tells them it's necessary for fighting terrists, they would accept a video camera in their bed- or bathrooms no problem.

                  Our stupid government and their parliamental accomplices plan a law, that allows the police to optically and acoustically spy on the apartments of innocent people (without their knowledge of course), if they think that criminal or terror suspects are among their visitors. A TV station explained that (in prime time even) and asked the viewers in a tele-poll if they would accept it. I expected a 99% against, but the outcome was about 50-50.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by chegitz guevara

                    I don't think the population is fine with it. I think they're so defeated that they've either become apathetic or they care but they feel that the battle is lost and just accept it.
                    They're right. Apart from a few countries, it is clear that liberal democracy is for the most part a failure. There's a great deal of effort expended on trying to find something else to blame, but in the end it's the same old story of people being willing to give up everything except that which is actually causing the problem.

                    At present, if you really think about it, politics is really only of theoretical interest.
                    Only feebs vote.

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                    • #11
                      The trend is generally towards more and more data about individuals being held by the governments.

                      It is worrying. The main strength of this practice is not in combatting terrorism. It is in combatting domestic population. Not with sinister intentions, but despite that I predict that great many innocent people are going to be hurt by governments' attempts to fight (eventually even petty) crime.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by VetLegion
                        The trend is generally towards more and more data about individuals being held by the governments.
                        ...as well as by private business which may spam you with silly ad stuff (in various forms) in return
                        Blah

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                        • #13
                          But I usually have a choice, when it comes to private business. Nobody forces me to use Google, and if I decide to nonetheless, at least not logged in. Or to take the 2% rebate card. Or to turn in my address in the public quiz.

                          I usually can't avoid to be spied out by the government.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by VetLegion
                            The trend is generally towards more and more data about individuals being held by the governments.

                            It is worrying. The main strength of this practice is not in combatting terrorism. It is in combatting domestic population. Not with sinister intentions, but despite that I predict that great many innocent people are going to be hurt by governments' attempts to fight (eventually even petty) crime.
                            it already happens. there was a case here a few weeks ago involving a local authority using surveillance powers, designed to combat terrorism and organised crime, during an investigation into whether the parents of a child lived within their chosen school's catchment area.

                            there was a bit of an outcry in that case, but i can only see this sort of thing becoming more common.
                            "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                            "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sir Ralph
                              But I usually have a choice, when it comes to private business. Nobody forces me to use Google, and if I decide to nonetheless, at least not logged in. Or to take the 2% rebate card. Or to turn in my address in the public quiz.

                              I usually can't avoid to be spied out by the government.


                              i seem to remember making a post which was like war and peace part 3, in response to a similar point bebro made a while back.
                              "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                              "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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