US house prices in freefall -- redux

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Tell that to Miami.

The supply is not short, in Charleston SC alone there are 60K new homes or starts on the market WITH NOBODY TO BUY THEM. That is even with a 10% markdown in the last year.

You ignored the part where I said they can't afford them. Homes need to be built, and people need to be able to afford them. That's what I call an efficient market. Anything less than that is not lacking.

No it isn't it is the cause. People didn't lose money and then their house devalued, their hous devalued and then they lost money.

WTF?! The cause is lack of mortgage capital and that has created low expectations. Both of those have caused the surplus. The surplus is a symptom. I don't know what you are on about with people losing money at certain times.

You need to make up your mind. On the one hand you are pissed housing prices are falling and people are being forced out of their homes, on the other you want housing prices to fall so new people can buy houses.

My mind is made up just fine. I'm not pissed that housing prices are falling. I'm pissed because the falling prices aren't going to benefit us because we still can't buy houses. What I want is for housing prices to stay low, but that's not going to happen unless we do something to make them stay low. I also want people to be able to get low cost mortgages.

Regardless, we are not going to see a 60% drop in housing prices, which is what would have to happen for that condo I would have bought to equal my rent now. Renting is cheaper, period. Home ownership is a long term investment for those who can handle a long term investment.

Renting is not cheaper when you consider built up equity. You're assuming people will default, but they won't if their payments are low enough. No one choses to default. The first payment you make is to your housing. There are very few people who choose to live on the streets or in shelters.

This is exactly correct, and that group is in fact where most of the poor forclosed home owners everyone is crying about come from. They push their means to the edge, leaving no room for fluxuations. They might have been able to survive an APR increase if they were were banking an odd grand from their paycheck, but stupid people leave beyond their means and thus are caught flat footed at the slightest change in the status quo.

And remember, they don't just buy the biggest house possible, but the nicest cars, designer clothes, big TVs, etc. But not health insurance, you have to save money somewhere

Then builders ought to build cheaper houses and more of them. If they didn't build expensive houses people wouldn't buy them. It's very simple.

[Patroklos]

You ignored the part where I said they can't afford them. Home need to be built, and people need to be able to afford them. That's what I call an efficient market. Anything less than that is not lacking.

Plenty of people can afford them, like me. I choose not to buy because I know I can get a better price later.

Anyone who could have afforded a house (that includes having good credit) a year ago still can now. The only difference is that millions more now can as the prices have declined. However, just because I can afford something doesn't mean it isn't overprices, hense I still don't buy.

My mind is made up just fine. I'm not pissed that housing prices are falling. I'm pissed because the falling prices aren't going to benefit us because we still can't buy houses. What I want is for housing prices to stay low, but that's not going to happen unless we do something to make them stay low. I also want people to be able to get low cost mortgages.

Ah, so you are pissed off prices haven't fallen enough. Listen Kid, houses have a value like everything else, and no matter what their prices are only going to go so low. If you are that poor that you won't even be able to capitalize on the current and near future prices you have no buisness owning a home from a financial standpoint in the first place.

The goal is not making sure everyone who wants to own gets one, thats mentality that got millions into their current mortgage woes. Houses are not magic, it will always be in certain peoples best interest to rent given their means.

Renting is not cheaper when you consider built up equity. You're assuming people will default, but they won't if their payments are low enough.

Why would we consider built up equity given the character of people we are talking about? We are talking about 1.) people currently in trouble and 2.) people with no business owning houses that you want to unload one on.

Again, what is the better choice. Spending 50% of your income on a mortgage that stresses your finances to the limits and will in all probability break them, or renting for ten years at 25% of your income and banking the rest (that you can invest or keep for an emergency) so that someday you can make a big enough downpayment that your motgage will only be 25% of your income.

No one choses to default. The first payment you make is to your housing. There are very few people who choose to live on the streets or in shelters.

People most certainly do. If you made a bad decision and bought a house you couldn't afford you deserve every misfortune that comes your way because of it.

Also, why exaclty do you think just becasue you forclose on your house you lose your job? Rent is far less than the mortgage payment you were making.

Then builders ought to build cheaper houses and more of them. If they didn't build expensive houses people wouldn't buy them. It's very simple.

Builders build the houses people want, or did want, in all price ranges. And regardless of the house, the property itself prices out most of the people you wish to foist crushing debt upon.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Plenty of people can afford them

Not! What ever you call plenty is not enough. Go tell that to poor families who are stuck paying high rent their whole life and working their asses off.

Ah, so you are pissed off prices haven't fallen enough. Listen Kid, houses have a value like everything else, and no matter what their prices are only going to go so low.

That's a very wrong statement. The value of houses is not like the value of other things. Actual work for example does not have a speculative value. The cost of a house is much more than what it actually costs to build the house. That's why working people are having trouble buying houses.

If you are that poor that you won't even be able to capitalize on the current and near future prices you have no buisness owning a home from a financial standpoint in the first place.

A person who works should be able to afford a house. If you disagree with that, and you probably do, too bad.

The goal is not making sure everyone who wants to own gets one, thats mentality that got millions into their current mortgage woes. Houses are not magic, it will always be in certain peoples best interest to rent given their means.

Rent does not just pay for a place to live. Someone else makes money from that. It is never in your best interest to rent when you could avoid paying someone else simply for owning the place where you live.

Builders build the houses people want, or did want, in all price ranges. And regardless of the house, the property itself prices out most of the people you wish to foist crushing debt upon.

They need to be regulated then. Problem solved.

[rah]

I deleted a post here. If I see it again, I may delete the user.

[Patroklos]

Not! What ever you call plenty is not enough. Go tell that to poor families who are stuck paying high rent their whole life and working their asses off.

I am sorry reality alludes you. So you are telling me that despite prices falling, fewer people can afford houses?

So to help this poor family you are going to drope a mortgage twice the size of the rent? Awesome.

The cost of a house is much more than what it actually costs to build the house. That's why working people are having trouble buying houses.

Exactly Kid, supply and demand do. Your learning. Now apply to shoot down everything you have said in this thread.

A person who works should be able to afford a house. If you disagree with that, and you probably do, too bad.

We don't live in your communist utopia Kid, stop pretending we do or ever will. Every worker should have the lifestyle his income provides, sometimes that includes owning a house and sometime it doesn't.

Rent does not just pay for a place to live. Someone else makes money from that. It is never in your best interest to rent when you could avoid paying someone else simply for owning the place where you live.

Again, you are saying people can't afford "high" rent, yet you magically think they can afford a higher mortgage? Kid, YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR YOUR HOUSE!

They need to be regulated then. Problem solved.

Oh yes, please do abolish property rights, that always works

[Kidlicious]

If you want to debate communism I'll wipe the floor with you, but I'm not talking about communism. The fact that you think that I am proves how bad I would wipe the floor with you. I'm simply talking about regulating markets to make them more efficient, avoid crisis, and benefiting more people.

[Patroklos]

If you want to debate communism I'll wipe the floor with you, but I'm not talking about communism.

Please explain why this time would be different than every other time you discuss communism which has resulted in pretty much every person on this board boot stomping you at one time of another.

I'm simply talking about regulating markets to make them more efficient, avoid crisis, and benefiting more people.

No, you are not. You are talking about abolishing the market all together so that everyone can have a house.

It is stupid in its own right without even envoking the epic fail that is communism.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Patroklos
You are talking about abolishing the market all together so that everyone can have a house.

Don't waste my time, telling me what I'm saying.

[Patroklos]

As has been observed in this thread already, you don't even know what you are saying.

So, are you going to offer any coherent thoughts in this thread or not, I have more important things to do than watch you mentally masterbate.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Patroklos
As has been observed in this thread already, you don't even know what you are saying.

So, are you going to offer any coherent thoughts in this thread or not, I have more important things to do than watch you mentally masterbate.

"They need to be regulated then."

Put up or shut up.

[Patroklos]

"They need to be regulated then."

Yeah, like I said, abolish the market.

Oh, you think you can regulate the market to the point McDonald's burger builders can afford a house and still have a market left to speak of. Cute

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Yeah, like I said, abolish the market.

That's a start. At least you admit that that's what you said.

Oh, you think you can regulate the market to the point McDonald's burger builders can afford a house and still have a market left to speak of. Cute

You're the one who said that the houses that they are building are built to be unaffordable, but you don't want to change that. Too bad. I don't know why anyone bothers with you.

[Patroklos]

You're the one who said that the houses that they are building are built to be unaffordable, but you don't want to change that. Too bad. I don't know why anyone bothers with you.

They are affordable to those who should be able to afford them, or at least they soon will be. Prices are regulated by supply and demand Kid, demand will regulate prices long before 14 year old joey with his lawn mower will be able to get a loan. Again, why you wish crushing debt upon people is beyond me.

Why do you hate poor people

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Patroklos




They are affordable to those who should be able to afford them, or at least they soon will be. Prices are regulated by supply and demand Kid, demand will regulate prices long before 14 year old joey with his lawn mower will be able to get a loan. Again, why you wish crushing debt upon people is beyond me.

Why do you hate poor people

What a bunch of nonsense! People can't afford the houses that are being built. It's very simple. That's a problem and I'm proposing a solution, and you aren't.

[Patroklos]

What a bunch of nonsense! People can't afford the houses that are being built. It's very simple. That's a problem and I'm proposing a solution, and you aren't.

No, Kid, SOME people can not afford SOME houses that are being built. I am sorry that you are mad 7 year old Mary Sue can't afford a slit level from her lemonade stand profits, but most of us don't see that as a problem.

That's a problem and I'm proposing a solution, and you aren't.

Your imaginary belief that everyone must own a home is the problem, it is the exact problem that got people into their foreclosure situations.

The problem with the prices last year was not that nobody could afford those houses, but that we had so many houses and less people wanting them that buiders/realters had to compete for scarce buyers. That lowered home sale prices for all homes. This has nothing to do with poor people and ownership.