Announcement

**Ninot** · May 13, 2008, 14:54

Bob Barker

I'd so vote for him

**LordShiva** · May 13, 2008, 14:56

Originally posted by Ninot
Bob Barker

I'd so vote for him

I'd vote for your cousin

**Ninot** · May 13, 2008, 15:00

**Ogie Oglethorpe** · May 13, 2008, 15:39

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Cap and trade could indeed work. Let the market work on the emissions.

Or, the alternative, would you prefer a carbon tax?

Neither of course.

Cap and trade is simply a shell game with China being the house that wins regardless. Course everyone wants to point to the 1990 clean air act SO2 emissions reduction as proof that it does. The big difference of course was that power plants could reduce their emissions by using stack scrubbers rather than be taken offline. There is virtually no means to reduce CO2 emssions save by reduction in combustion activities or by extension reduction in economic activites. Switches to other power sources are and will not be as cost effective as combustion ones for some time especially for the transportation sector. Even in industrial power genration, unless theire is a fundamental switch in allowing more nukes to come on line the cost of renewables will adversely affect economic activity.

**Imran Siddiqui** · May 13, 2008, 16:06

Neither of course.

Well, then I guess we could make power plants pay for ALL of the negative externalities they cause.

**Ogie Oglethorpe** · May 13, 2008, 16:14

Seems to work for the Chinese quite well (or not).

Course since half of all the emissions come from transportation sector banging on the industrial seems a bit a waste of time short of vested interests of the big industrials claiming their share of US CO2 rights and dictating who can compete in the US as a consequence.

And of course we predicate all this based upon a catastrophic prediction yet to be validated. Would you care to estimate the externalities. You'll not get a single agreement to the number.

**chequita guevara** · May 13, 2008, 16:18

Bob Barr is that extreme right-wing nutjob from California who used to be a Congressman, right?

**Zkribbler** · May 13, 2008, 16:21

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Bob Barr is that extreme right-wing nutjob from California who used to be a Congressman, right?

He headed up the impeachment proceedings against President Clinton I.

**Imran Siddiqui** · May 13, 2008, 16:21

Well, the transportation section would be subject to higher CAFE standards (I would hope). Try to tackle the problems from other ends.

I wouldn't necessarily have to estimate the externalities, just make is easier to sue companies that release emissions for things like aggravating asthma or preventing people from enjoying parks and things like that.

Or we could continue our practice of ignoring the externalities and having our insurance rates increase because of increased medical costs due to emissions.

**Ogie Oglethorpe** · May 13, 2008, 16:21

@ Che,

Georgia.

**Ogie Oglethorpe** · May 13, 2008, 16:26

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well, the transportation section would be subject to higher CAFE standards (I would hope). Try to tackle the problems from other ends.

By going the hybrid route most likely. You realize of course costs of ownership of hybrids far outstrips that of conventional gas once one consideres initial capital costs and outrageous cost of maintenance. Course the verdict isn't in yet we need to understand the true reliability and maintenance required on hybrids.

Most Hybrid Vehicles Not as Cost-Effective as They Seem, Reports Edmunds.com

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/06/01/110662.html

SANTA MONICA, Calif., June 1 -- Consumers seeking shelter from high gas prices might not find the relief they expect by turning to hybrids, announced Edmunds.com, the premier online resource for automotive information. (Logo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20031009/LATH011ALOGO) "The combination of increasingly higher gas prices and a greater variety of hybrids in the marketplace has made many consumers seriously consider a hybrid as their next vehicle," said Phil Reed, co-author of Edmunds.com's "Strategies for Smart Car Buyers." "While some people buy hybrid cars because they appreciate the environmental benefits and enjoy using advanced technology, consumers looking at hybrids solely to save money at the gas pump need to carefully research the cost of actually owning and operating a hybrid." Consumers who own a hybrid car or SUV may purchase less gas and have lower maintenance expenses than if they owned the non-hybrid counterpart, and may qualify for a federal tax credit designated for hybrid vehicle owners. However, most hybrids' high sales prices, insurance costs and related expenses will offset the savings. Edmunds.com found that during the first five years of ownership, a hybrid can cost as much as $5,283 more than its non-hybrid counterpart. Model Edmunds.com True Market Value(R) Additional cost to price plus ownership costs* own hybrid Ford Escape Hybrid $50,521 Ford Escape XLT AWD $47,092 $3,429 Honda Accord Hybrid $49,972 Honda Accord EX V-6 $46,156 $3,816 Honda Civic Hybrid $36,666 Honda Civic LX $32,993 $3,672 Toyota Prius $37,893 Toyota Corolla LE $32,610 $5,283 Toyota Camry LE $37,974 -$81 Only when the analysts compared the Toyota Prius to the Toyota Camry LE did the hybrid ownership experience prove financially advantageous -- but barely.

I wouldn't necessarily have to estimate the externalities, just make is easier to sue companies that release emissions for things like aggravating asthma or preventing people from enjoying parks and things like that.

Or we could continue our practice of ignoring the externalities and having our insurance rates increase because of increased medical costs due to emissions.

Ok with the second definitely not the first. By the by CO2 does not cause in anyway asthma. Good try though. If you wanna go after smog (CO emissions and particulates) that is a solvable problem.

**Ramo** · May 13, 2008, 16:30

Or we could continue our practice of ignoring the externalities and having our insurance rates increase because of increased medical costs due to emissions.

The issue here is climate change, and not necessarily air quality.

The carbon tax is the best solution IMO; none of the candidates support that. A cap and trade system with an aggressive cap and a 100% auction of permits would be the next best thing (Obama and Clinton). Cap and trade with an outdated cap and limited to no auctions (McCain) - meh. And obviously, this would have to be coupled with a rapid expansion in nuclear power (Obama and McCain)...

**Zkribbler** · May 13, 2008, 16:53

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
@ Che,

Georgia.

I stand corrected.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about him.

**DanS** · May 13, 2008, 19:40

I would like to see the libertarians put forth a strong slate of candidates. If nothing else, it inserts a badly-needed set of ideas into the political landscape.

However, I don't know how strong Barr is. My vague impression of his congressional days is that he's not that strong.

**Rufus T. Firefly** · May 13, 2008, 20:47

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Bob Barr is that extreme right-wing nutjob from California who used to be a Congressman, right?

I'll bet you're thinking of "B-1" Bob Dornan, from Orange County -- up there with Idaho's late, unlamented Helen Chenowyth as one of the House's true loons. IIRC, he went down to defeat in the 90s -- losing to a Hispanic woman, Loretta Sanchez, which threw a truckload of salt into the wound.

But now you've made me wonder what happened to Bob Dornan the Poly poster.

Announcement

Bob Barr = Ralph Nader ????

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment