What was the deal regarding the Chinese invasion of North Vietnam?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Lancer
Rufus, iirc they showed the door to the Mongols too, the only nation to successfully defy them. Hmm. Yeah I think that's true.

Yep, I forgot about that! Actually, they kicked Mongol ass twice, iirc. The decisive sea battle the second time -- Battle of Bach Dang, or something like that -- was a masterpiece of sheer cunning. They're one hell of a people.

[Arrian]

So, basically, don't **** with the Vietnamese. Works for me.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
the USA screwed the pooch by not letting the military run the war.

Just as we aren't letting the military run the war in Iraq... right?

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
b) The Vietnamese took down the Khmer Rouge in '78-'79. The Khmer were proxies of the Chinese, who had recently aligned themselves with the US against the USSR. The Vietnamese had gradually drifted into the USSR camp.

Pretty distorted black and white picture you're drawing there.

[KrazyHorse]

How so? It's a bit simplified (the situation was actually pretty complicated) but I'd say it's an even-handed summation.

[KrazyHorse]

Which of those ideas do you deny:

a) That Cambodia under the Khmer was a client state of China
b) The Vietnam was in the "USSR sphere"
c) That Chinese foreign policy had become much more anti-USSR than anti-US

[LordShiva]

Etchy doesn't know much about Eastern civilisation

[Ecthy]

Shiva, you're out of your element, KH, those 3 options are not the issue here.

You said that "The Khmer were proxies of the Chinese, who had recently aligned themselves with the US against the USSR. The Vietnamese had gradually drifted into the USSR camp."

This might suffice to explain the general great power game at play at the moment in which China invaded Vietnam, but beyond that, and this discussion already included wider aspects, it's *much too simplified* in that you're ignoring the process of US - Chinese approachment.

It's close to saying China invaded Vietnam because they were some kind of ally of the US after the latter had to withdraw. Which would be stupid

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Arrian
So, basically, don't **** with the Vietnamese. Works for me.

-Arrian

Yup. Show up, enjoy some of the greatest food in the world, and politely leave. That's the ticket.

Sadly, I don't have time for a final trip to Vietnam before I leave the region -- but if my luck holds, I'll be back someday, posted to Hanoi.

[KrazyHorse]

1) I said nothing of the sort. Read part (d) above. I was quite clear about why the Chinese invaded. They weren't happy that the Khmer (their boys) had gotten their asses kicked by the Vietnamese (the USSR's team)

2) The Chinese attempt to contain Vietnam's influence was both a consequence and a cause of the rapprochement with the US. The US and the Chinese both wanted to isolate the USSR. They were going to use each other to do that. Vietnam was pro-USSR and anti-American. Both were good reasons for China to not like them. The world (especially SE Asia) was aligning along a new axis: China+US vs USSR

[LordShiva]

Etchy is out of his element

[Ecthy]

As for 1) - point taken, it was too simplified but might have fit into the concrete context.

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
2) The Chinese attempt to contain Vietnam's influence was both a consequence and a cause of the rapprochement with the US. The US and the Chinese both wanted to isolate the USSR. They were going to use each other to do that. Vietnam was pro-USSR and anti-American. Both were good reasons for China to not like them. The world (especially SE Asia) was aligning along a new axis: China+US vs USSR

And this is where it's not fitting. You're overestimating the nature and degree of reapproachment.

[KrazyHorse]

No, I'm not. There was a serious shift from the way the world looked in the mid-60s to how it looked in the mid-70s.

Whether this was the result or the cause of the China-US entente is a pretty meaningless question. The theory of Eastasia+Oceania versus Eurasia was accompanied by concrete shifts in regional relationships. That's what's important.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Yup. Show up, enjoy some of the greatest food in the world, and politely leave. That's the ticket.

Mmmmm, pho.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
No, I'm not. There was a serious shift from the way the world looked in the mid-60s to how it looked in the mid-70s.

Whether this was the result or the cause of the China-US entente is a pretty meaningless question. The theory of Eastasia+Oceania versus Eurasia was accompanied by concrete shifts in regional relationships. That's what's important.

Shift? We have always been at war with Eurasia.