Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Moral relativism and the fallacy of "non-judgementalism"

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Moral relativism and the fallacy of "non-judgementalism"

    I've often seen arguments against moral relativism which are of the nature that "If moral relativism is true, there is no way that we can argue that one morality is better than another, and therefore, there is no way to say that / is as good as not perpetrating ". Unfortunately, trying to "prevent judgementalism" on the part of others is one major reason many of its strongest proponents adopt moral relativism.

    Apart from the fact that the argument itself is fallacious - bad things following from the truth of a proposition are in no way indicative of the proposition's truth value - there is another, implicit fallacy here, which points to the fact that both the person asserting the equality of all moral systems and the person arguing against the same lack an understanding of the implications of relativism.

    It is relativism which is, in truth, the moralists' strongest weapon, and the concept of an objective "one morality to rule them all" which is his downfall.

    When a relativist says that one morality is "as good as another", he is invoking a standard of judgement to judge their relative worth, or their moral equivalence, based on the idea that one subjective value is, by some metric, just as good as another. What he overlooks, however, is that that standard or metric is also part of a moral system. Therefore, he is, at a level, asserting absolutism. The true relativist, on the other hand, says nothing of the sort. He will assert that one set of values - his valuation - is the correct one, and if anyone tries to claim that another is equivalent to it, he will say that he does not accept the moral system used to make that equivalence judgement, and if his opponent tries to invoke relativism to claim thus, he will simply point out the absolutism of assuming an absolute metric of this nature, and the self-contradiction inherent therein.

    In the form of a dialogue:

    Relativist True: My valuation is the correct one.
    Relativist False: How can you say that? All moral systems are equivalent, because they are all subjective, and there exists no objective standard.
    Relativist True: You are right in that there is no absolute standard. How, then can you claim the equivalence of all moral systems? Doesn't that implicitly assume that there exists some absolute standard which we are invoking to judge the relative worth of these systems? Is not doing so and claiming relativism at the same time a contradiction?
    Relativist False: Ah! I am enlightened! (Becomes a true relativist.)


    On the other hand, when a person assumes some objective standard of morality exists, there always exists the usual philosophical doubt about whether he has correctly perceived that standard. Thus, the proponent of the objective morality is always in a state of self-doubt as to whether or not his perception of the "One True Morality" is the correct one - because here, morality is as such separate from us, and the best we can do is to try to perceive it. Here, the best-case scenario is an asymptotic convergence towards the one true morality. The one who rests his moral foundation on absolutism is, therefore, the one who cannot claim the absolute correctness of his morality.

    Another illustrative dialogue:

    Absolutist: I claim that an absolute morality exists, and that therefore some action is right and another wrong.
    Doubter: Are you free of all doubt about the correctness of your perception of this one true morality? Can you be sure that you have made no errors in perceiving its nature? Is your grasp of it free from all those philosophical doubts which plague the epistemologists?
    Absolutist: No. I cannot claim absolute certainty.


    In a sense, then, it is relativism which is the moralists' true liberation, as it is the only system in which, morality not having to be perceived, he can make an absolute assertion about the moral nature of an act, and on the correctness of other systems, and still retain confidence without self-doubt, because of the logical nature of the system itself.

    Now, this does not constitute an argument for or against relativism - were I to do that, I would be guilty of the same sort of fallacy I mentioned the deluded absolutist engage in against the relativist. But I hope I can spark off a discussion on relativism and absolutism, because usually they are used in the opposite sense, and for the opposite purpose.

  • #2
    Relativist False: Ah! I am enlightened! (Becomes a true relativist.)




    Sorry, that was just amusing. But I somewhat agree on your general argument of "true" and "false" relativists (I guess for lack of better terms at this moment.. after all, there are different degrees of relativism and not everyone who is a relativist goes full hog to it).
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

    Comment


    • #3
      You are quite right.

      And I still think your value system sucks.
      Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
      Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

      Comment


      • #4
        "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

        Comment


        • #5
          Just because you believe that it's rigth to beat your children or sacrifice them to the Gods, for example, doesn't mean that such behavior is moral, relativily or absolutely. It means that your brain is ****ed up. Something ****ed it up along the way or possibly you are a ****. Probably your society is ****ed up or you are stupid.
          Last edited by Kidlicious; April 2, 2008, 09:32.
          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

          Comment


          • #6
            The one who rests his moral foundation on absolutism is, therefore, the one who cannot claim the absolute correctness of his morality.


            This is the fundamental problem with moral absolutists: They should feel this way, but they do not empirically. Moral absolutists throughout history have used their 'knowledge of the absolute moral good' to oppress others who disagree. This is an unfortunate element of human nature - that we innately desire control over our environment, and one of the key elements of this is to surround yourself with people of a similar moral code to yourself (which makes them more predictable, and thus safer).

            Further, aneeshm, you are being unfair in this comparison. You are comparing the most extreme of moral relativisms, with a moral absolutism tempered by relativism in the above statement. The fair comparison would be comparing moral relativism and a moral absolutism that claims knowledge of the moral absolutes. Suggesting a moral absolutist who is unsure of the moral absolutes, is suggesting a compromise - a quite reasonable one - which is very different from analyzing the extremes of the argument. You could similarly compare a moral relativist who believes that morality is relative to the population, for example, meaning that there is always a standard that one can be held to, but a standard that shifts based on social development.
            <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
            I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by snoopy369

              Further, aneeshm, you are being unfair in this comparison. You are comparing the most extreme of moral relativisms, with a moral absolutism tempered by relativism in the above statement. The fair comparison would be comparing moral relativism and a moral absolutism that claims knowledge of the moral absolutes.
              No problem. But then, the absolutist will have to demonstrate the validity of his epistemology - its absolute validity. Note that this is a standard which is far more rigorous than even the epistemology of science demands of itself.

              If he could do that, then this would have gigantic repercussions on not just philosophy, but everything. Philosophy as we know it would come to an end.

              So yes, the absolutist may well claim an absolute perception, but then, he'd have to demonstrate it, too.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by snoopy369
                The one who rests his moral foundation on absolutism is, therefore, the one who cannot claim the absolute correctness of his morality.


                This is the fundamental problem with moral absolutists: They should feel this way, but they do not empirically. Moral absolutists throughout history have used their 'knowledge of the absolute moral good' to oppress others who disagree. This is an unfortunate element of human nature - that we innately desire control over our environment, and one of the key elements of this is to surround yourself with people of a similar moral code to yourself (which makes them more predictable, and thus safer).
                I don't think having control over your environment means oppression. It can mean liberation. That said someone who believes in relative morality can also be oppressive.
                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think that moral relativism is a simply horrendous moral theory, and ought to be rejected. First, by assuming that universal morality does not exist, moral relativists overlook the origins of moral values.Human values are not arbitrary or capricious. Their origins are based in the facts of biology. These realities shape and constrain human behavior. They also shape human beliefs about the world and their evaluations of various aspects of it. Human beings cannot exist without air, water, food, sleep, and personal security. Thus, there are many constraints placed on human behavior, if individuals and groups are to continue to survive and to thrive. These are not matters of choice. How these needs set limits to the possible. Morality derives from human biological and psychological characteristics and from our higher order capacities of choice and reasoning. Actions and attitudes that individuals and societies ought to avoid are equally well-recognized: abuses of power, intolerance, theft, arrogance, brutality, terrorism, torture, fanaticism, and degradation. These value judgments are not distinctively Islamic, Judeo-Christian, or Hindu, or Asian, Western, or African. They are human values that have emerged, independently, in many different places.

                  Second, the claim that moral relativism is tolerant while moral universals are strict is predicated on contradicting notions. If a relativist replied that he is not presupposing the objective value of tolerance, then all he is doing is demanding the imposition of his subjective personal preference for tolerance. That is surely more intolerant than the appeal to an objective, universal, impersonal, moral law. If no moral values are absolute, neither is tolerance. The absolutist can take tolerance far more seriously than the relativist. It is absolutism, not relativism, that fosters tolerance.

                  Third, relativism undermines morality, possibly resulting in Social Darwinism. Relativism denies that harming others is wrong in any absolute sense. The majority of relativists, of course, consider it immoral to harm others, but relativist theory allows for the opposite belief. In short, if an individual can believe it wrong to harm others, he can also believe it right–no matter what the circumstances.

                  Thus, moral relativism is nothing but a logical fallacy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kidicious View Post
                    Just because you believe that it's rigth to beat your children or sacrifice them to the Gods, for example, doesn't mean that such behavior is moral, relativily or absolutely. It means that your brain is ****ed up. Something ****ed it up along the way or possibly you are a ****. Probably your society is ****ed up or you are stupid.
                    Does Abraham ring a bell? You're his legacy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kidicious View Post
                      Just because you believe that it's rigth to beat your children or sacrifice them to the Gods, for example, doesn't mean that such behavior is moral, relativily or absolutely. It means that your brain is ****ed up. Something ****ed it up along the way or possibly you are a ****. Probably your society is ****ed up or you are stupid.
                      Was Kidicious sane in the past?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This is some very random thread necromancy. I suspect that this is a case of taking Ethical Theory 101 and posting in the first thread that came up in a google search, but I find it difficult to believe that a four year old apolyton thread was the first hit on an Ethical Theory google search.
                        Originally posted by gribbler View Post
                        Was Kidicious sane in the past?
                        He's always been kind of dumb, but at one point he was a non-fundamentalist which means that at one point he was relatively sane
                        <p style="font-size:1024px">HTML is disabled in signatures </p>

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by loinburger View Post
                          This is some very random thread necromancy. I suspect that this is a case of taking Ethical Theory 101 and posting in the first thread that came up in a google search...
                          I was actually doing research for a debate topic when I found this thread. It actually made me gag, so I felt the need to say something. As for me taking "ethical theory 101", I am still in High School and I study Philosophy independently.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by HaxoR iz SickK View Post
                            As for me taking "ethical theory 101", I am still in High School and I study Philosophy independently.
                            It shows.
                            "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
                            "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Al B. Sure! View Post
                              It shows.
                              I was under the impression that commenting on this thread would yield some intellectual discussion. I guess i was wrong

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X