How much is appropriate?

[Aeson]

Cornering the market on mediocrity would take a superlative (in)effort. I don't think it could be done.

[Dracon II]

Originally posted by Asher
Alexander's Horse

I am refuted

It is true that Australia swung too far towards protectionism and nannyism for much of its history; however, this has much more to do with tarriffs, unionism, and a culture of parochialism (all of which have been, in the past 30 years, eroded), than with the bare minimum wage. The coverage of the minimum wage of workers in the economy is not sufficient to argue that it is a cause of mediocrity (if indeed, Australia is mediocre). On the contrary, despite Australia's egalitarian ethos/culture we are in general a very hardworking people with a more than respectable unemployment rate.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but tipping is a phenomenon of the service industry, hospitality in particular. I personally don't see how the lack of tipping and the decent min wage makes the coffee I am served mediocre or somehow inferior product. It is true that waiters/waitresses and serving staff in Australia are not as deferential to the customer as in North America, but that is because we probably tend to make more of a distinction between service and servility. Setting the minimum wage lower than normal for designated 'tipping' jobs, as low (I have heard) as $2 per hour, thus making people dependent on the generosity of their customers is a recipe for the latter. The example Tiamat just alluded to is not unlike the homeless man who halfheartedly wipes your windscreen hoping for a few bucks... except the man is not homeless, he is an employee at a cafeteria (or maybe he IS homeless... poverty is not just for the unemployed). It is superfluous activity, undertaken with the object of either a) taking advantage of someone (Tiamat) or b) keeping the wolf from the door. The opportunity to do a) and the necessity of doing b) should be eliminated to the greatest extent possible, in my opinion.
The idea that tipping is designed to reward service is belied by the fact that it is effectively a subsidy for the low wages paid by employers. In North America you are expected to tip... which defeats the purpose of it, but given the condition of American service workers, is necessary. The Australian system requires an employer to duly compensate their workers as human beings... the American system requires the customer make up for the failure of the employer to do so.

That being said... tipping does exist to some extent in Australia. But it is not expected, it is not an entitlement. It is a reward for exceptional service, given freely by a customer. For ordinary service, we expect that ordinary payment of the bill will cover the cost.

Dracon, your name and avatar are mildly ironic considering Australia was recently nothing more than an oversized jail.

"Recently" being the early 19th Century? By that logic the USA was even more recently a country where you could buy and sell human beings as property. I think that both our country's experiences should serve as warnings against producing a desparate and exploited underclass. In this, I think Australia has progressed further.

But I will add that the common slur against Australians as nothing more than the descendants of criminals is as ridiculous as painting all Americans as descendants of witch hunting puritans. In fact, it is even more so, given that America still has a strong puritan and moral paranoiac strain in its culture, and that Australia has, contrary to its purported sociological origins, one of the most peaceful and law abiding societies on the face of the planet.

Contrary to common opinion, the population growth of the original colonies of Australia accounted for by the transportation of convicts was more than dwarfed by that accounted for by free settlement due to the abundance of land and relative wealth and prosperity available to those who came. In this we are more like America (or California in particular, given the influence that gold discoveries had). My ancestors, for example come from the colonies of South Australia and Victoria, neither of which were convict colonies.

The country has produced little more than a defunct crocodile hunter and a useless but pretty opera house. If I am missing anything please let me know but I think this has been a fair post.

I see... so you are a solipsist who believes that anything you are ignorant does not in fact exist. My rule of the thumb is that anyone whose first and only substantial image of Australia is Steve Irwin obviously knows nothing about the country but is likely to pretend to in a way that is nothing if not laughable, if it were not at the same time sickly patronizing. You may as well admit that you know nothing of my country, at least then I will forgive you, because we're not exactly a superpower.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Dracon II
My rule of the thumb is that anyone whose first and only substantial image of Australia is Steve Irwin obviously knows nothing about the country but is likely to pretend to in a way that is nothing if not laughable, if it were not at the same time sickly patronizing.

When envisioning Australia, I usually think of Crocodile Dundee first.

Do you have a rule of thumb about that?

[Dracon II]

That is even worse, because it means you have paid no thought to my country since the 1980's

[Dracon II]

... unless of course you guys still actually watch that movie

[-Jrabbit]

Tia, not tipping in that situation is perfectly cool.

[Ming]

Tipping is not an automatic addition to the cost of eating out... It's OPTIONAL! (unless you are in one of those restaurants that adds a tip for parties larger than 6) The size of the tip I leave is totally dependent on the level of service I get. As it should be!

I've left 10% tips before for buffet style dinning if the server earns it... by bringing me drinks, clearing away empty plates quickly, and basically checking in with me to see that my needs are met. In the situation you mention Tia, I wouldn't have left anything either.

[Tiamat]

Ok, since Ming said it was alright I feel better now Actually I'm the same way at the buffett. If they stay on top of things and are quick then yes, I'll tip, but not when I'm doing most everything myself.

[Wezil]

Nice Guy Eddie: C'mon, throw in a buck!
Mr. Pink: Uh-uh, I don't tip.
Nice Guy Eddie: You don't tip?
Mr. Pink: Nah, I don't believe in it.
Nice Guy Eddie: You don't believe in tipping?
Mr. Blue: You know what these chicks make? They make ****.
Mr. Pink: Don't give me that. She don't make enough money that she can quit.
Nice Guy Eddie: I don't even know a ****ing Jew who'd have the balls to say that. Let me get this straight: you don't ever tip?
Mr. Pink: I don't tip because society says I have to. All right, if someone deserves a tip, if they really put forth an effort, I'll give them something a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, it's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doing their job.
Mr. Blue: Hey, our girl was nice.
Mr. Pink: She was okay. She wasn't anything special.
Mr. Blue: What's special? Take you in the back and suck your ****?
Nice Guy Eddie: I'd go over twelve percent for that.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ming
Tipping is not an automatic addition to the cost of eating out... It's OPTIONAL! (unless you are in one of those restaurants that adds a tip for parties larger than 6)

Actually, it's still optional by law in many jurisdictions.

[snoopy369]

Tipping isn't (really) optional in full service restaurants, as far as I'm concerned (not by law of course), because it is a portion of the waiter's salary. They make $3 an hour if they're lucky, in addition to tips, and generally work pretty hard. A 15% tip should be standard for all service meals, unless severely bad service occurs that is the fault of the waiter (and often it is not, of course, but you should know the difference).

At a place like Luby's though, they make at least minimum wage in addition to tips, so I don't consider it their entitlement.

Dracon, tipping as a form of core wage (ie, lower wage plus tips) encourages better waiters because the ones that are good get enough tips to make quite good money, and the ones that are not as good don't make enough money and quit Do note that minimum wage laws still apply to waiters' post-tip wages - they must end up with at least $5.75 an hour (or whatever minimum wage is) after tips, so there is still some compensation guaranteed by the employer.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Dracon II
That is even worse, because it means you have paid no thought to my country since the 1980's

What do you mean? Dundee III was just out in 2001.



Anyway, back on topic.

Servers these days are getting told they should expect 20% gratuity, not the old stand-by of 15%. The IRS is calculating their wage based on a 12.5% still, however. Which, admittedly, is not fair if the resteraunt in question practices tipping out.

That said, the busboy that clears your dishes at a buffet style resteraunt is not a server.

[Ming]

Originally posted by snoopy369
A 15% tip should be standard for all service meals, unless severely bad service occurs that is the fault of the waiter (and often it is not, of course, but you should know the difference).

The 15% figure varies by market. We were up in Minneapolis for a convention, and I tipped 15% for breakfast because the service was average at best (I usually tip more if they do their job). The next day, we went in for breakfast, and we were treated like kings. I asked some of the locals and they told us that 10% was considered average.

However, I really don't care if they are making slave wages. If the service is poor, they aren't getting a tip.
It is there job to provide service, and if they don't, they can live on their piss poor wage and no tips.

[Wezil]

Or learn to type.

[-Jrabbit]

So their!