Lets talk about alternative WW2 scenarios...

[Andemagne]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Why would Peral Harbour happen in such a raddically different time line?

Pearl Harbour would happen like it did, maybe Japs would even bomb US oil reserves at PH, but Hitler would not declare after it.

Possibly but the real question is what happens to the Manhattan project in this timeline? Would it be complete in 1945? Could the Germans even get Nukes first?

yes, this is the real question. probably. there would be a race , and the loser would get nuked the minute the bomb would be ready. maybe they would even test their weapons on the enemy.

[Dr Strangelove]

Going back to the original question as what would have happened if Germany hadn't invaded the SU in 1941, I'd like to point out that the primary reason for Hitler's invasion in 1941 was that intelligence discovred that the SU had undertaken a massive arms program. Hitler feared that if he did not defeat the Soviets in 1941 it would be impossible to do so at a later date. It also brings up the question as to whether Stalin may have been planning to strike at Germany eventually. By 1943 he would have completely replaced his officer core and would have completely revamped his armor and air force. By 1943 the Soviets would be equipped with better tanks than the Germans and with fighters able to at least compete with the Me 109, so it's possible that had the germans not attacked in 1941 they would have been seriously tasked by a Soviet attack in 1943.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Pilsudski probably could have been enticed into an alliance with Germany against the USSR.

Au contraire to your words, Pilsudski allegedly proposed France "preventive war" against Germany in 1933, but it's denied.

Yes, Germany was trying to lure Poland into alliance, and in fact Hitler's ascent to power resulted in milder german politics against Poland. I personally think Hitler's very severe treatment of Poles in ww2 was result of kind of unsatisfied hope of alliance against USSR.

Completely unlikely. Poland got all it wanted in the east, in fact it even resigned of some lands USSR was willing to give it (so that Poles remained a majority in their state). Polish attitude through the middlewar period was to support status quo, except for getting back Cieszyn stolen by Czechoslovakia during the time Poland was repealing Red Army.
Poland had no interest and no intention in war with USSR. Polish politics was so-called "even distance" between USSR and Germany. It's proven impossible and led to destruction of the state, but it was in force until 1939.

[chequita guevara]

Without a German occupation of France and the Netherlands, it's unlikely Japan would get drawn into a war with the U.S. It was due to the occupation of Dutch and French colonies that Japan decided it needed to neutralize the American threat of the Philippines.

In the event of a German-Polish war on the USSR, Japan joins the dog pile and seizes the Soviet East.

[David Floyd]

Well, actually what drove Japan to start a war in the Pacific was the fact that the US slapped a pretty major oil embargo (as well as scrap iron and a few other things) on Japan after Japan repeatedly refused to end its war in China. There was a HUGE pro-China lobby in the US Congress that really drove that. To withdraw from China would have been unacceptable, as Japan would have "lost face", so the only alternative was to seek raw materials elsewhere.

Yeah, France and the Netherlands being occupied by Germany helped their decision, but I ultimately doubt they would have done anything differently. Not Japan - Japan just wasn't a rational state in the late 30s and early 40s.

[Dauphin]

What of value was in the Soviet East in the 1940s that Japan would have wanted to knab? Strategically preventing a Russian naval port on the Pacific may be one argument I guess.

[David Floyd]

I would think history would have something to do with it. In the Russo-Japanese War, the Siege of Vladivostok was especially hard fought and brutal.

[chequita guevara]

They wanted the region to colonize. Liddle-Hart said that the purpose of the Chinese invasion was to use it as a base and for resources in order to take on the USSR.

[David Floyd]

Indeed. Siberia was, after all, the "Northern Resource Area".

[Hauptman]

Germany made one mistake that cost them the whole war. Other things were just setbacks, but this one mistake did it in for them.

When they invaded the CCCP, they followed the troops with Einsatzgruppen. Who lined up the populace and shot them. This pupulace, had welcomed the german army just prior to being 'liquidated'.

Had the Nazis held back on any racial/ethnic cleansing until the war was won, The USSR would have collapsed. As the majority of the conquered states would have joined Germany for thier own Independance (such as the Ukrain, Belarus). Not to mention the Russians themselves would likely have not given their all.

Soviet troops had three options.

Surrender and have the Germans kill them.
Retreat and have the Commisars kill them.
Fight to the death or victory.

If Germany had knocked out Moscow in '41, uncle Joe, who refused to leave, would have been killed/captured. Victory would have been complete, and Great Britain would have had no other option that to accept a "white peace".

[David Floyd]

If Germany had knocked out Moscow in '41, uncle Joe, who refused to leave, would have been killed/captured. Victory would have been complete, and Great Britain would have had no other option that to accept a "white peace".

Why? Germany is still unable to invade, and I'd say that I successful knockout of the USSR probably brings in the US. Even if it didn't, though, Germany still can't defeat Britain in the air or at sea. They might, MIGHT, be able to conquer the MidEast, but I'd have to doubt even that because of logistics.

[TheStinger]

With US supplies the UK cannot be successfully invaded.

If it came to it Roosevelt would probaly have loaned the Atlantic fleet to the UK to stop an invasion. (God knows what the price would have been be for that though)

[Heraclitus]

I hate to break this to you all, but the Sovier Union basically won WW2, even without any US support it would have still won.

If Hitler could beat the Soviet Union, he would have won WW2. Sure Britain might not get invaded. But a crazy British-American D-day would be a complete failure if there was just one front.

[TheStinger]

But the US/UK would have got nukes before the germans and then it's game over germany

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by TheStinger
But the US/UK would have got nukes before the germans and then it's game over germany

In such a raddically different time line, how can you be sure? The whole "Jewish science" bias in Nazi Germany was passe by then.