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Wiretapping Case Dismissed

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  • Wiretapping Case Dismissed

    "Those who give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security." ... Ben Franklin


    Bushie claims Art II gives him war powers which are unlimited by the Bill of Rights. With the Supremes upholding a lower court dismissal of a suit challenging this hetrodoxic claim, Bush is left to further trample on the Constitution.

    (This story is from the BBC America

    Top US court rejects spying case

    US citizens' overseas phone calls and e-mails were monitored

    The US Supreme Court has dismissed a legal challenge to a domestic anti-terrorism eavesdropping programme.
    President George W Bush authorised the monitoring, without a court order, of international phone calls and e-mails of US citizens after the 9/11 attacks.

    The American Civil Liberties Union argued that Mr Bush did not have the constitutional authority to order the programme, which ended last year.

    The Supreme Court gave no explanation for its ruling.

    Legality questioned

    The domestic spying programme was denounced by Democrats and rights activists when it was disclosed in 2005.

    A group of civil liberties activists, journalists, academics and lawyers challenged the spying programme in the courts, arguing it violated a 1978 rule prohibiting surveillance of American citizens on US soil without a warrant.

    In July last year, an appeals court struck down a lower court's ruling that found the programme to be unconstitutional.

    The appeals court, based in Cincinnati, dismissed the case because the plaintiffs had failed to show that their communications had been monitored.

    But the Cincinnati judges did not rule on the legality or otherwise of the programme.

    The president rejected claims that he broke the law by ordering surveillance without first securing warrants. He argued the eavesdropping programme was necessary and was targeted against al-Qaeda.

    The Bush administration has so far refused to release documents about the programme that might reveal who was under surveillance.

  • #2
    The appeals court, based in Cincinnati, dismissed the case because the plaintiffs had failed to show that their communications had been monitored.


    Barring further information on this, i'd presume that the USSC agreed with this (or simply refused to hear the case) ... so they in no way supported Bush here, they simply said that the plaintiffs did not prove the essential underpinnings of their case.

    <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
    I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by snoopy369
      The appeals court, based in Cincinnati, dismissed the case because the plaintiffs had failed to show that their communications had been monitored.


      Barring further information on this, i'd presume that the USSC agreed with this (or simply refused to hear the case) ... so they in no way supported Bush here, they simply said that the plaintiffs did not prove the essential underpinnings of their case.

      On the other hand, if you are challenging a SECRET monitoring regime, how exactly are you going to be able to bring it before a court of law?
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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      • #4
        While entirely true, you're the lawyer here... how exactly are you going to be able to bring that suit successfully before a court of law?
        <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
        I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


          On the other hand, if you are challenging a SECRET monitoring regime, how exactly are you going to be able to bring it before a court of law?
          It would be ironic if it turns out the person who finally gets Bush's practice ruled unconstitutional turns out to be an actual terrorists, who successfully moves to have the evidence him thrown out...especially, when a court would have issued a search warrant again him.

          Either the Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court could have easily said that the government having a secret monitoring system in place has a chilling effect on free speech, and thus all USAians using international communications have a right to challenge the practice.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
            On the other hand, if you are challenging a SECRET monitoring regime, how exactly are you going to be able to bring it before a court of law?
            How does one establish standing then? Doesn't that require proof of an injury of some kind?
            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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            • #7
              Originally posted by DinoDoc
              How does one establish standing then? Doesn't that require proof of an injury of some kind?
              Almost always...but what is an "injury" is somewhat malluable. (See my post above.)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by snoopy369
                While entirely true, you're the lawyer here... how exactly are you going to be able to bring that suit successfully before a court of law?
                To be able to challenge a separation of church and state issue all you need to have standing is to be a tax payer. I'd imagine that some sort of standing standard like that should be applied to challenging secret spying.

                Like Zkribb said, a Court may accept a chilling effect on speech argument. If a Court wants to, it can make sure the party has standing (ie, mootness in Roe v. Wade - no one could get through all the court process within 9 months, so standing was based on all women who could get pregnant and are denied abortion rights).
                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, if you prove this, then it isn't a secret, thus it wasn't secret tapping. So if you claim something is secret when it isn't, you're talking out of your ass and should be thrown out of the court anyway.
                  In da butt.
                  "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                  THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                  "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                  • #10
                    Like Zkribb said, a Court may accept a chilling effect on speech argument. If a Court wants to, it can make sure the party has standing (ie, mootness in Roe v. Wade - no one could get through all the court process within 9 months, so standing was based on all women who could get pregnant and are denied abortion rights).


                    Unlike Roe, though, in case of actual injury it's easy to get standing - if/when they prosecute you for information collected secretly, you can challenge the evidence then as illegal.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle."
                      "That's some catch, that catch-22," he observed.
                      "It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.
                      Stop Quoting Ben

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                      • #12
                        That was poorly timed.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Wiretapping Case Dismissed

                          Originally posted by Zkribbler
                          "Those who give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." ... Ben Franklin

                          Fixed.
                          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


                            On the other hand, if you are challenging a SECRET monitoring regime, how exactly are you going to be able to bring it before a court of law?
                            Exactly the problem.
                            Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kuciwalker
                              Like Zkribb said, a Court may accept a chilling effect on speech argument. If a Court wants to, it can make sure the party has standing (ie, mootness in Roe v. Wade - no one could get through all the court process within 9 months, so standing was based on all women who could get pregnant and are denied abortion rights).


                              Unlike Roe, though, in case of actual injury it's easy to get standing - if/when they prosecute you for information collected secretly, you can challenge the evidence then as illegal.
                              That's the problem though -- the case was dismissed because the plaintiffs couldn't prove they'd be spied upon. They can't prove they were spied upon because the program is secret.

                              There are ways to use the info gained from the surveillance program in ways beyond using the wire tip info directly in a criminal case. For example, federal agents hear Bob talking about cheating on his taxes. They pass that info on to the IRS. Bob is audited. His audit arose from an (allegedly) illegal wiretap, but he may never know that. If the federal authorities are smart, they'll never use the info gained in the program in a way that exposes it to judicial review.

                              That sucks IMO.
                              The undeserving maintain power by promoting hysteria.

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