Was there a good side and bad side in ww1?

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Andemagne

Good and Evil not proper concepts. tell me more about this.

Define them.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Andemagne


what would have happened if the germans hadn't had it together enough to crush the reds? red weimar?

They would have aided the communists in Hungary and had "good" relationships with the Soviet Union (a war couldn't break out). Since France would probably have a harder time getting a coalition of all the left political parties (peoples front) to stave off the fascists. The Republican side would have won in the Spanish Civil war. The British union of Faschist might have taken off or it might have not. In any case the US would remain democratic till 1950 after that I can say. The Russian civil war would have been less devastating, but the Germans would have to fight out interventionist forces right after WW1, but the economic crises wouldn't have touched them.

WW2 would be about commies vs. fascists & democracy

or it would have been two wars not a word war, on in Europe and one in the Pacific

If it was global the Japs may even have decided to attack the Soviet Union not the US, making them an ally.

[Heraclitus]

oh, no Israel and no Holocaust


EDIT X DAYS LATER: Come on I made spelling mistakes used but way too often and even said "no Isreael" and "no Holocaust" to lure a Nazi comparison

People are just getting lazy

[Andemagne]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Define them.

no, I meant "what are proper concepts?"

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Alexander I
I think each participant was itching for a fight to prove how great their new 20th Century weaponry was and to build up their already tremendous national egos. So I think they're all to blame for what happened. That being said, I think it was unfair for Germany to have to shoulder all of the blame and penalties for the war, just because they voluntarily gave up to stop the bloodshed. (France )

In case of germany I think there was also in large parts underestimating of the french forces (and the changes modern fortresses brought to warfare).
After all it was not even 50 years before, when the german coalition under Prussia was victorious in the french-prussian war of 1870/71.
I assume that the german high command thought they would gain such a swift victory again totally neglecting to think about the changes modern entrenchments and fortresses as well as the widespread use of machineguns introduced to the battlefield

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Andemagne
I wonder how much troops they still had in russia in the fall of '18?

They had lots of old men and boys.

[Andemagne]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
In case of germany I think there was also in large parts underestimating of the french forces (and the changes modern fortresses brought to warfare).
After all it was not even 50 years before, when the german coalition under Prussia was victorious in the french-prussian war of 1870/71.
I assume that the german high command thought they would gain such a swift victory again totally neglecting to think about the changes modern entrenchments and fortresses as well as the widespread use of machineguns introduced to the battlefield

german high command doesn't believe or estimate, they count.
trenches came into play AFTER the Schliefen Plan had failed, and Schliefen Plan failed because Moltke the B@st@rd moved "an armycorps and a half" from western front to eastern front.

Originally posted by Sandman
They had lots of old men and boys.

nah, I want real numbers.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


AH more or less followed Germany's instructionst, they where very much the junior parter.

According to Barbara Tuchman's book the unrealistic demands placed on Serbia came from the Austrians themselves. The Germans didn't instruct them, but gave them a carte blanche regarding the handling of the crisis. In doing so the Kaiser knew full well what would likely happen and was fully prepared to follow through.
It should be pointed out that Bosnia - Herzegovina was never legally given to Austria. The treaty of 1878 handed the administration of the region to Austria, but the actual ownership was to remain Ottoman.
In many ways though the blame for WW1 is evenly distributed throughout Europe. The greedy aristocrats had nursed their grudges for so many decades, they decorated their studies with the trophies of glorious campaigns past. They had made their plans and had dreamt of glory for so many nights. They could not be denied forever. The myth of martial glory had to be finally laid to rest.

[Dr Strangelove]

dp

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Andemagne


german high command doesn't believe or estimate, they count.
trenches came into play AFTER the Schliefen Plan had failed, and Schliefen Plan failed because Moltke the B@st@rd moved "an armycorps and a half" from western front to eastern front.

And I think this Schlieffen-Plan was largely influenced by the successes in 1870. It didn´t account for modern defensive technologies (like the machinegun) but instead counted on the same rapid successes like in the war in 1870 in defeating the french army.
IMHO this lets it appear questionable if this plan had worked even if Russia hadn´t mobilised so fast (and therefore germany was forced to fight a 2 fronts war).

[Patroklos]

german high command doesn't believe or estimate, they count.
trenches came into play AFTER the Schliefen Plan had failed, and Schliefen Plan failed because Moltke the B@st@rd moved "an armycorps and a half" from western front to eastern front.

Of course the German's assessed the utility of machine guns in modern war, if they hadn't their army wouldn't have been filled with them.

The reason teh Schlieffen plan failed was because the power of the right hook was weakened to apease the ego of the crown prince. He was in command of one of the armies opposite the main French defenses on the French frontier, and he wasn't happy with playing the decoy.

In the end the Germans diverted strenght not only to the crown prince, but to all the armies along the French frontier greatly weakening the main thrust through Belgium. The Germans actually made progress along the French frontier instead of boucing off, which shows just how unessessarily strong they were.

[Thoth]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


Define them.

Good: "anything I like"

Evil: "anything I don't like"

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Sandman
They had lots of old men and boys.

Kinky.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Let's not forget the 100 days offensive and Reds organizing all over the place. The Allies are lucky that Germany had it together enough to be able to crush the Reds.

The first strike/civil disturbance over food shortages in Imperial Germany during WWI was in 1916....

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Andemagne

I wonder how much troops they still had in russia in the fall of '18?

Far from gaining an advantage by capturing the 'breadbasket' of the Ukraine and the coalfields of the Donetz basin, Imperial Germany was at a disadvantage- it had to use troops to garrison the captured areas and ended up exporting food to the Ukraine and coal to the Donetz...


Not only that, but Germany was crucially short of the fertiliser/nitrate/phosphate supplies which it had relied on for its expanded agricultural sector. It could no longer rely on the guano exports from Chile or Nauru.

Hindenburg, Ludendorff and co. simply lied to the Kaiser when necessary- their diaries revealed they knew what a desperate state Germany was in, militarily and on the home front economically.

General Fritz von Lossberg:

"...July 18, 1918 was the precise turning point in the conduct of the war. The OHL's (High Command) failure to understand that the combat strength of the German army was already severely shattered in July 1918 [and] required systematic rebuilding."

Ludendorff:

( He described 8 August 1918 as) "The black day of the German army,"

and

"...success was easy for the enemy."

Ludendorff again:

"...the army cannot hold out for another 48 hours. "

September 28th, 1918