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  • A curious pattern

    I've noticed a curious pattern among feminists. It so happens that there are a number of boards I frequent, and if it so happens that you disagree with one of these feminists on anything, they then fall into a pattern very similar to the one I've outlined below:



    Statement: Housewives are better than working women.
    Feminist Response: This is rank prejudice against women. By creating such cultural pressure, you deny them equal economic opportunity. You MCP!

    S: Working women are better than housewives.
    FR: This is a devaluation of the contribution of the invisible but extremely vital mass of women to society. And you say that only because the working women has fit into the masculine ideal - has submitted herself and her image of herself to the patriarchy. You MCP!

    S: Housewives should be accorded the same respect as working women.
    FR: This is a subtle way of trying to keep women from becoming economically independent, and of keeping them subservient to the patriarchy, by denying the importance of economic independence. You MCP!

    S: Men and women are equal.
    FR: This is an attempt to erase the essential differences between the multiple genders, and to fit them into a duality without acknowledging the specifics of both, and of denying women their due by claiming equality. Equality under a patriarchal system is not equality at all. You MCP!

    S: Men and women are not equal, but complementary.
    FR: This is a way to bring back old prejudices, by saying that men and women are separate but equal. You MCP!

    S: Men and women are not equal, and women are inferior.
    FR: (Doesn't say anything, because of incoherent rage. The words male, chauvinist, pig, and "will roast you over a spit" may be heard as in the occasional periods of lucidity.)

    S: Men and women are not equal, and women are superior.
    FR: This is a wolf in sheep's clothing. By claiming that women are superior, and then claiming they are superior because of certain attributes, you create a cultural pressure or tendency to amplify those attributes, thereby making women subservient to your vision of the world. You MCP!

    S: Men and women should be granted equal opportunity.
    FR: Equal opportunity to participate in this fascist patriarchy! Pah! Who wants that? By offering this, you enslave women to the patriarchal norms and society. You MCP!

    S: Men and women should not be granted equal opportunity - women should be granted less.
    FR: (Similar incoherent rage.)

    S: Men and women should not be granted equal opportunity - women should be granted more.
    FR: This grant of privilege is perverse, as it assumes that women are inferior and weaker, and cannot compete on an equal footing with men. Do not patronise us. You MCP!

    The examples can be multiplied manifold, but the ones given above should suffice to prove the point - that no matter what is actually said, it will be taken to be some sort of insidious attack on women in general, and that one woman in particular. And the more common-sense would suggest that it isn't an attack, the more insidious the "attack" will be made to seem, the more convoluted and devious, because surely, only the most devious and cunning person could have hidden it so carefully, no?



    Reminds me of an old joke:

    If a man speaks in a forest, and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?

  • #2
    You are the master of the strawman, aneeshm.
    Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
    "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Lorizael
      You are the master of the strawman, aneeshm.
      QFT
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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      • #4
        The point I'm trying to make here is that a "feminist" can take any position she wishes. The actual position doesn't matter. What matters is how it is presented. As long as the reason for opposing something is because it's "the patriarchy", it's fine.

        For porn? Against porn? For equality? Against equality? Think differences exist? Think differences are purely socially constructed? All of this doesn't actually matter, what matters is why you take the position you do. As long as it's to defeat some invisible patriarchal enemy, it's all good.

        Why is there such wild variance within feminism? Why is there absolutely zilch coherence, except for the sense you get of the enemy in the background, the mythical patriarch, who is the final and ultimate enemy, the defeat of whom shall end all ills?

        Note that I'm not talking about normal women here, I'm talking about the people who teach feminism and women's studies and gender studies and other assorted "studies", the academics, the ones who teach in the universities.

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        • #5
          Re: A curious pattern

          Originally posted by aneeshm
          If a man speaks in a forest, and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?
          Only if he is married
          Keep on Civin'
          RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

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          • #6
            Re: Re: A curious pattern

            Originally posted by Ming


            Only if he is married


            You win this thread.

            Comment


            • #7
              Yeah, feminism isn't a well-defined ideological system. Noone says it is and you shouldn't treat it like it is.
              APOSTOLNIK BEANIE BERET BICORNE BIRETTA BOATER BONNET BOWLER CAP CAPOTAIN CHADOR COIF CORONET CROWN DO-RAG FEDORA FEZ GALERO HAIRNET HAT HEADSCARF HELMET HENNIN HIJAB HOOD KABUTO KERCHIEF KOLPIK KUFI MITRE MORTARBOARD PERUKE PICKELHAUBE SKULLCAP SOMBRERO SHTREIMEL STAHLHELM STETSON TIARA TOQUE TOUPEE TRICORN TRILBY TURBAN VISOR WIG YARMULKE ZUCCHETTO

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              • #8
                The point I'm trying to make here is that a "feminist" can take any position she wishes. The actual position doesn't matter. What matters is how it is presented. As long as the reason for opposing something is because it's "the patriarchy", it's fine.


                Let's echo the strawman comment again. I fail to see how this is different than any other ideology fighting against another one (ie, as long as the reason for opposing something is because it benefits "the corporations", it's fine, for commies).
                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Why is there such wild variance within feminism? Why is there absolutely zilch coherence, except for the sense you get of the enemy in the background, the mythical patriarch, who is the final and ultimate enemy, the defeat of whom shall end all ills?

                  Note that I'm not talking about normal women here, I'm talking about the people who teach feminism and women's studies and gender studies and other assorted "studies", the academics, the ones who teach in the universities.


                  Why is there such wide variance in communism and socialism? Except for the enemy in the background (capitalism)? Why is there such wide variance in American conservativism, except for the enemies in the background?

                  This can go on and on. Some ideologies aren't closed off, narrow systems. It happens.
                  “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: A curious pattern

                    Originally posted by aneeshm
                    It so happens that there are a number of boards I frequent,
                    I 1st read this as "broads". No wonder you're getting the heat.
                    I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                    I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

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                    • #11
                      Some plucky social scientist could probably earn fame and fortune by examining the hardcore feminist subculture. For example, do they get converted at university or are they already adherents beforehand? How many stay that way for life?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by aneeshm
                        The point I'm trying to make here is that a "feminist" can take any position she wishes.
                        Strawman!

                        Individual feminists may or may not have more coherent, consistent ideologies. Grouping together all possible feminist arguments will, unsurprisingly, create contradictions.

                        But seriously, what do you expect us to do here? We can agree with you that feminists are stupid, in which case it shouldn't take us very long to finish out this thread.

                        Or we can attempt to defend feminism, but since you're attacking all aspects of feminism as a whole and not actually making a specific argument, we're not going to get anywhere.

                        What's the point of this thread?
                        Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                        "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                        • #13
                          To show that anything you say or do to a feminist, you will be wrong.

                          I would not call him strawman,but captain obvious.

                          Spec.
                          -Never argue with an idiot; He will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sandman
                            Some plucky social scientist could probably earn fame and fortune by examining the hardcore feminist subculture. For example, do they get converted at university or are they already adherents beforehand? How many stay that way for life?
                            How are they in bed? And where's my dinner, woman?!?
                            "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
                            "you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
                            "I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident

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                            • #15
                              Statement: Housewives are better than working women.
                              Feminist Response: This is rank prejudice against women. By creating such cultural pressure, you deny them equal economic opportunity. You MCP!


                              /me blinks

                              I don't see the problem with the response there...

                              edit: ah, I stopped reading after that because the whole thing sounded stupid. It turns out that was a good idea.
                              Last edited by Kuciwalker; January 23, 2008, 14:00.

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