It happens in africa so who cares ?

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Geronimo


So now the EU must have been formed because europeans were so tired of all the peace that resulted from keeping those pesky other ethnic groups on the other side of the border?

EU was created to prevent wars, yes. But this does not imply that the concept of nation-state was by that act overcome. Nation-states are the building blocks of the EU. They still exist. The fact that they are at peace now and that the EU exists does not imply that without the EU there would be permanent war in Europe. That would be a little too simplistic, don't you think? After all many countries in the world are at peace without being in a supranational union.

You are rushing to conclusions. A step back and a look at the numbers will show you that by and large of the ~200 political entities in the world today the most stable ones are the most homogenous ones. Yes, that means nation-states.

Once you have stable nation-states you can build larger structures upon that. But you need to have solid foundations first.

[BlackCat]

VetLegion, youll probably hate this - you and I agree probably on something like 90 % when it comes to EU policy (I'll leave 10 % disagreement so we can have some fun )

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Geronimo
What relevance do ethnic divides have to good civics?

Each culture has its own ideas on what good civics are.

Shouldn't good government transcend ethnic divisions?

Perhaps, if the division were only an ethnic one.

Why if a state fails due to ethnic strife is it somehow the fault of those who put the ethnic groups into a common state rather than the fault of those who placed ethnic interests above the common good?

Because there has never really been a stellarly successful state built on top of "ethnic" division.

Why doesn't Canada neatly divide itself along french and english speaking lines? Why would that make it a better place?

The French routinely try, and it may very well end up that way.

[SlowwHand]

Dallas-Fort Worth Kenyans rally for democracy, pray for peace

05:10 PM CST on Wednesday, January 2, 2008


By JOANNA CATTANACH / The Dallas Morning News

A group of 50 or so Kenyans from North Texas gathered Wednesday afternoon to pray for solidarity and peace as violence continues in the African nation in the wake of the country's recent presidential election.

"Kenya is going to become like another Rwanda," said Steve Aseno, a businessman who helped organize Wednesday's protest downtown. "Before things get better we are yet to see the worse nightmare," said Mr. Aseno.

The demonstrators carried signs asking for democracy in Kenya and held black, red, and green Kenyan flags. Many more held onto the hope that something could be done to restore democracy.

"We've been given a president by force who never won the election," said Stanley Kasayoka, an investment banker in Dallas.

Incumbent president Mwai Kibaki claimed victory Sunday over his opponent, Riala Odinga, in what many believe was a rigged election. "Until the 11th hour, Riala had won the election," said Mr. Kasayoka, referring to polls that indicated Mr. Odinga would win going into the elections.

Now, local Kenyans are calling home and hearing stories of horror and accusations that police are emptying mortuaries to hide the evidence of atrocities. And many have heard stories from their families implicating police and sectarian leaders in widespread violence in the country.

"I feel hopeless myself," said Wilson Korir, who also helped organize Wednesday's protest. He said his sister is forced to pay 50 shillings a day to sectarian leaders in order to remain safe and alive. Kenya has roughly 42 tribes, Mr. Korir explained, and the election fallout has brought about ethnic tensions. "It defeats democracy," he said.

Mr. Kasayoka and his wife, Beatrice K. Thomas, said their three children, ages 9, 12, and 15, are trapped in Nairobi, the capital, where they continued to live and study while Mr. Kasayoka did graduate work in New York in 2005. He's since graduated and transferred to Dallas with his wife.

The couple said their home in Kenya was burned down and the children cannot leave the capital since travel in and out has been stopped. Ms. Thomas says she'll risk her life to get her children if peace is not restored soon.

Protests were organized in New York, Minnesota, Washington, D.C., Pennsylvania and Kansas as well as in Europe.

There are an estimated 80,000 Kenyans in North Texas. The local Kenyan community has plans for more demonstrations and information sessions this weekend.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by VetLegion


Despite your sarcasm, that is partially correct. It is not entirely unfathomable that there would be ethnic tensions and perhaps violence should say 20% of the population of England one day become Polish or something. Europeans aren't vaccinated against xenophobia just because they have EU.

And they can't be vaccinated against it because it is genetic. Built into all of us by evolution.

How on earth did you come to such a frightening conclusion? What are it's implications for states like Canada or switzerland?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by BlackCat


You certainly isn't up to date with EU policy or for that what is going on in the EU states.

You also blatantly ignores under which circumstances things are done.

referring to the exceptions? A few exceptions for some members won't preserve the ethnic homogenity to which you credit peace in europe.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by VetLegion
You are rushing to conclusions. A step back and a look at the numbers will show you that by and large of the ~200 political entities in the world today the most stable ones are the most homogenous ones. Yes, that means nation-states.

Those rushing to conclusions are those who claim that strife in kenya was caused by borders drawn up by europeans.

Furthermore I would say that the correlation between the age of a state and it's stability is much greater than that between it's ethnic homogenity and stability. Is albania really more stable than switzerland for instance? Which european states are clearly more stable than switzerland?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Whoha

Each culture has its own ideas on what good civics are.


Perhaps, if the division were only an ethnic one.

There is no evidence of an ideological divide between the two kenyan parties. It appears to be a purely ethnic one.

[Whoha]

I guess if they both want to screw each other over that isn't that ideologically different. but I didn't use that word to describe it.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Whoha
I guess if they both want to screw each other over that isn't that ideologically different. but I didn't use that word to describe it.

I was referring to your implication that the state was failing because two cultures with incompatible ideas on what constitutes good civics were within it's borders. I didn't really see how the two ethnic groups were demonstrating different ideas on what good civics are rather it seemed clear that they were simply demonstrating bad civics all around.