Define communism.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I don't believe in "blessed." Why do you believe what you believe? Because that's what your Daddy and you boss believe?

But my question is simpler. Why is that you think that your beliefs, which you would have to admit are the beliefs of a very small minority of North Americans constitute some sort of truth while beliefs shared by a vast majority constitute a false conscience.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by DirtyMartini
Have you not read one of his posts before this?

You MUST be new .

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber


But my question is simpler. Why is that you think that your beliefs, which you would have to admit are the beliefs of a very small minority of North Americans constitute some sort of truth while beliefs shared by a vast majority constitute a false conscience.

Who believes it and who does not believe it has nothing to do with the truth of it. You capitalists seem to think that believing something makes it true. Maybe it's just something about this website, but I find that consistently.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious



A communist system has an economy that is fully developed (read: does not require further development). Capitalism, on the other hand, always requires development to function properly.

What exactly is a full developed economy?

Second why do you say that capitalism requires development ? It is theoretically possible that you can reach equilibrium states. However I acknowledge that as unlikely since the nature of capitalism is that people have incentives to innovate which can cause entire industries to disappear or be created

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Who believes it and who does not believe it has nothing to do with the truth of it. You capitalists seem to think that believing something makes it true. Maybe it's just something about this website, but I find that consistently.

and you believe something and therefore YOU think its true. My beliefs do not fundamentally require me to think that your beliefs are some sort of hoax perpetrated by someone.

In fact, many of the things you support sound ok in theory. I just question how they work in practice.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Also, a communist system requires a democratic system and citizenry or else it is totalitarian. For example, the USSR was a pre-industrial society that attempted to implement a communist system (at least at first they did). They also industrialized (at the point of a gun). That resulted in a totalitarian, authoritarian and exploitive system. The key is surplus labor. Workers must be controlled in order to get them to produce surplus labor.

If such a society is a true democracy, I have no problem with it. That means that I can lobby people to change things I don't like and that the more energetic and intelligent people will have opportunities to improve their personal situations through working harder and smarter. I believe in democracy, despite all its flaws, more than anything else in the political-economic area.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
and you believe something and therefore YOU think its true.

You can't possibly be serious with this ****! Everyone thinks what they believe is true. That's very different from saying that it's true based on the simple fact that you do believe it or someone else does.

My beliefs do not fundamentally require me to think that your beliefs are some sort of hoax perpetrated by someone.

It's not a hoax. It's the way society functions. Don't you understand that peoples values are a product of the society which they are a part of?

Anyway, so what if your beliefs don't require it?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber

A communist system has an economy that is fully developed (read: does not require further development). Capitalism, on the other hand, always requires development to function properly.

What exactly is a full developed economy?

I explained that. It can not, or should not, be developed further.

Second why do you say that capitalism requires development ?

Development is a huge part of a capitalist economy. Without it there would be huge failure.

It is theoretically possible that you can reach equilibrium states. However I acknowledge that as unlikely since the nature of capitalism is that people have incentives to innovate which can cause entire industries to disappear or be created

Innovation does not create much growth, if any at all. That’s not development. Development is turning an undeveloped country like China into a developed nation. Innovation will make individuals more competitive but it doesn’t drive capitalism. The utilization of resources drives capitalism. It creates jobs and makes financial markets boom.

Also, a communist system requires a democratic system and citizenry or else it is totalitarian. For example, the USSR was a pre-industrial society that attempted to implement a communist system (at least at first they did). They also industrialized (at the point of a gun). That resulted in a totalitarian, authoritarian and exploitive system. The key is surplus labor. Workers must be controlled in order to get them to produce surplus labor.

If such a society is a true democracy, I have no problem with it. That means that I can lobby people to change things I don't like and that the more energetic and intelligent people will have opportunities to improve their personal situations through working harder and smarter. I believe in democracy, despite all its flaws, more than anything else in the political-economic area.

You need to be neither hard working nor smart to be rich in a capitalist system.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious

You need to be neither hard working nor smart to be rich in a capitalist system.

Obviously-- many people are rich because their parents were rich and their own personal merit is not thatt much a factor. But I didn't say that the rich were hard working and smart.

What I essentially said was that a person that is hardworking and smart (and often only one of those two) they can improve their situation. I don't know that "rich is necessarily a goal most people anyway. I know that I made life choices that will mean that I accumulate less wealth in favor of more time with family.. I see many many people doing the same.


But I fundamentally believe that people ( and by that I mean the 98% of people that are not struck with some major misfortune) can improve their situation in life.

The fact that some rich kids have more money than me bothyers me not at all.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I always find it amusing when it is stated that false conscience is only an aspect of capitalist systems. I mean, yes, you can come up with utopias where everyone is enlightened and whatnot, but it'll never happen.

Let's then work in the actual world and see that false conscience is a fact of every system and every society. No one can really reach "true conscience" because in every society people are ingrained with certain "truths", certain ways of living, certain "good" values. It is merely what happens in every society, which is why you may have vastly different versions of what are good values or known truths. Not because the people are implanted with false conscience to make them more useful to the masters (or whatever), but because false conscience naturally occurs as a result of our social being.

Oh, and, Kid, I'll save you the trouble and pretend you just said how horrible relativism is.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I always find it amusing when it is stated that false conscience is only an aspect of capitalist systems. I mean, yes, you can come up with utopias where everyone is enlightened and whatnot, but it'll never happen.

Let's then work in the actual world and see that false conscience is a fact of every system and every society. No one can really reach "true conscience" because in every society people are ingrained with certain "truths", certain ways of living, certain "good" values. It is merely what happens in every society, which is why you may have vastly different versions of what are good values or known truths. Not because the people are implanted with false conscience to make them more useful to the masters (or whatever), but because false conscience naturally occurs as a result of our social being.

Imran-- You just said the things which I was hoping kid would admit-- well stated

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
Obviously-- many people are rich because their parents were rich and their own personal merit is not thatt much a factor. But I didn't say that the rich were hard working and smart.

What I essentially said was that a person that is hardworking and smart (and often only one of those two) they can improve their situation. I don't know that "rich is necessarily a goal most people anyway. I know that I made life choices that will mean that I accumulate less wealth in favor of more time with family.. I see many many people doing the same.


But I fundamentally believe that people ( and by that I mean the 98% of people that are not struck with some major misfortune) can improve their situation in life.

The fact that some rich kids have more money than me bothyers me not at all.

If you have to work you ass off for something than saving you the work is doing you a favor. If you inherited all the money I can see your complaint.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Not because the people are implanted with false conscience to make them more useful to the masters (or whatever), but because false conscience naturally occurs as a result of our social being.

But the reason why we have a false conscience is because we have masters. Why would we have a false concience without masters? If we don't have masters we must have a true conscience. It's just like when we are children and we are taught right from wrong. The social relationships in a authoritarian society are parent-child.

Oh, and, Kid, I'll save you the trouble and pretend you just said how horrible relativism is.

That's not really saying morals are relative, it's saying that a false conscience is relative. Morals are absolute, consciences are not.

[Heraclitus]

Coming up with a better system than we have now shouldn't be to hard. I'll see if I have some time tommorow after lunch to write up a manifesto.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kidicious
But the reason why we have a false conscience is because we have masters. Why would we have a false concience without masters? If we don't have masters we must have a true conscience. It's just like when we are children and we are taught right from wrong. The social relationships in a authoritarian society are parent-child.

In any society there is a "master" conscience, in the sense that the prevailing view of what is good and what is not is set in any society. Even in a utopian master-less society (in any real life society there will ALWAYS be people who are in charge... they have to be to run the state/social group/etc), the society has created its own morality and values. These social constructs create a false conscience in the children who are taught that these are the proper values and morality to follow.

That's not really saying morals are relative, it's saying that a false conscience is relative. Morals are absolute, consciences are not.

Well, aside from the whole bit about morals not being absolute .

My comment was saving you the trouble of saying MY relativism was horrible (I'd imagine anyone who has read my posts in a philosophical thread or two realizes that I happen to be a relativist).