And then there was one...

[Asher]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
So I’ll put Asher and Wezil in the don’t believe/don’t care in the dangers climate change – good to know where you stand…

When your climate is as cold as ours is, you wouldn't care either.

But the basis of our argument is on the technical stupidity of Kyoto, not the underlying idea.

[Asher]

Originally posted by dannubis
Thanks guys...

And it does clean up a lot of the mindless forum clutter.

Besides Asher, don't throw a fit you attention whore.

And unfortunately no more Agathon

Excuse me? You're the one that interrupted a discussion on the thread with an attention-whoring comment to tell us all you managed to figure out how to hit the ignore button.

The stupidity of the world astounds me sometimes.

[Asher]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


I bet he fled the moment he realised Asher had been reinstated…

There was a week or so of overlap. After numerous, and continuous, completely one-sided debates he fled, as he's apt to do. He's back posting at MacRumours.com, pimping the Playstation 3 as the winner of the console wars.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Asher
But the basis of our argument is on the technical stupidity of Kyoto, not the underlying idea.

I agree, but the simple truth is that nothing is going to change until Kyoto is up for renewal in 2012 – which will be too late by then. Everyone needs to make the best of an out of date concept and really work on what to replace Kyoto with until then.

Kyoto doesn’t work because the one country that should have signed it to give it any global authority hasn’t. Obviously countries like Canada realise that without the US as a signatory, they can get away with breaking their promises without any fear of punishment – which is far worse than not signing it in the first place IMO. Australia has only jumped on the bandwagon because they are in the grips of a terrible drought that is destroying their agricultural capacity.

Just as well Europe actually has some morals – even my backward country is supposedly on target to almost double its Kyoto target…

Really, it’s not ****ing difficult and the future of the planet as it is today depends upon it.

As for catastrophe, there are at least three indicators I can think of off the top of my head (Arctic ice melt, Ocean acidification, Thawing out of permafrost) that we are either perilously close to a positive feedback cycle – or at the very beginnings of one!

[Patroklos]

Just as well Europe actually has some morals – even my backward country is supposedly on target to almost double its Kyoto target…

But is Kyoto the reaon for this, or was in done in spite of it?

[Asher]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Kyoto doesn’t work because the one country that should have signed it to give it any global authority hasn’t.

No, it doesn't work for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is an absurd timeframe for drops in energy use. Not the least of which is the absurd credit trading system, either.

It's fundamentally flawed, regardless if the US signs or not.

The goals of Kyoto are simply unattainable for Canada. Canada would need to "buy" quota...

[MOBIUS]

If it is such an absurd timeframe, why can countries like the UK currently be on target for hitting our targets almost twice over? And this is by a govt that doesn’t particularly care about the environment…

[Patroklos]

Because you are continuing your decline into irrelevance twice as fast as before

Seriously MOBIUS, if a country is inclined to reduce its emissions or is in a position to do so in the first place, it will regardless of a non binding treaty with no method of enforcement.

I am more concerned with pollution anyway.

[Asher]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
If it is such an absurd timeframe, why can countries like the UK currently be on target for hitting our targets almost twice over? And this is by a govt that doesn’t particularly care about the environment…

1) Cite that
2) Because the UK is a small, densely populated country with existing infrastructure like rail and public transit that massive countries like Canada don't have.

Canada relies extensively on a cross-country trucking network, for instance. Many cities don't have acceptable mass transit solutions. Air travel is incredibly common because it's the only way to get somewhere else in a reasonable amount of time, as the country is so large. Our climate means we use a lot of natural gas for heating. The longer nights mean we use more power for electricity. We're growing at a rate far higher than the UK. And we need to magically cut back, dramatically, how much we use?

The list goes on and on.

[Proteus_MST]

The really bad thing is that we cannot just erect a very high wall around the US and China so that only they are affected by their emission policies, wheras the rest of the world can save themselves due to sound environmental policies.

Sadly we´re all in the same boat on this issue.

As for Kyoto, dunno, but I think a lot of things have been done that without Kyoto wouldn´t have been done. And every tiny step into the right direction is better than no step at all.

[Heraclitus]

Moral: For the good of the planet, all humans should leave Canada

[Patroklos]

As for Kyoto, dunno, but I think a lot of things have been done that without Kyoto wouldn´t have been done.

Like?

[CrONoS]

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Asher
Canada relies extensively on a cross-country trucking network, for instance.

Because Canada is stupid and does not use its national rail infrastructure for freight?

Actually the UK is very poor on that too. Most of Canada’s population is on or near the east or west coasts, the St Lawrence and the Great Lakes so I call your argument false.

Many cities don't have acceptable mass transit solutions.

Whose fault is that!!?

Even small cities in the UK have comprehensive bus networks – it’s hardly difficult! Oh wait, Toronto is hell-bent on getting crappy trams! False – stupidly so!

Air travel is incredibly common because it's the only way to get somewhere else in a reasonable amount of time, as the country is so large.

A necessary evil – but then I am willing to bet that air travel emissions in the UK are far higher per capita than Canada! So false again.

Our climate means we use a lot of natural gas for heating. The longer nights mean we use more power for electricity.

And this is different from say Sweden and Norway how? Just build better insulated houses that use energy more efficiently. So, false again.

The list goes on and on.

Yeah, of false arguments that fail to stand up to scrutiny.

[Riesstiu IV]

I blame England, they started the Industrial Revolution.