U.S. Congress pushes up fuel economy standards.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Wezil

Where's the subsidy to US farmers in that? You really haven't thought about this have you?

The subsidy is clear. You tariff out all foreign sugar then you massively increase subsidies for producing ethanol. This causes a big run up in demand for high fructose corn syrup which is the primary sweetener in the US. Now how would subsidies greatly increasing demand for corn syrup act as a stimulant for corn growers? Hmm....

Get rid of the tariff on sugar and we'll see ethanol prices drop dramatically because world sugar prices are far cheaper then prices for corn syrup. This wouldn't subsidize corn farmers though thus the huge tariff on both sugar and imports of ethanol. ditch those and imports of both ethanol and sugar will decrease the cost of ethanol and as an added bonus taxpayers won't have keep giving welfare to big agrobusinesses.

[Zkribbler]

quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


Ethanol is a great idea but not if we're using corn to produce it. If we do use corn then it is stupid because we use more oil to produce the corn then we save by making ethanol. Republicans want to buy votes in fly over country so they raise this red herring and keep the tariff on sugar unreasonably high.

Better still, there's an ethonol plant just going online just about now somewhere down in Dixie. It has used genetic engineering to create a bacteria that can digest corn husks, stems, etc. wood shavings, grass clippings, etc. and turn them into ethanol. The proponents of this process claim it will triple farm profits by turning the farms' biowastes into fuel.

[Dinner]

Using celulose is all well and good and should be subsidized because it is an emerging technology which could revolutionize energy production. That said why should we keep subsidizing corn farmers when cheaper alternatives are easily available?

There is a long term cost to soils though by not tilling all that plant matter back into the soil.

[Zkribbler]

We should subsidize them through the 2008 election, and then....

BTW: You missed the most important travesty. Mexican farmers are tearing up their fields used to produce the cactus from which tequila is made and instead are planting corn to be turned into ethanol.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Wezil


Where's the subsidy to US farmers in that? You really haven't thought about this have you?

Reading your first objection against the (ab)use of ethanol, I was under the impression that you thought there were better use for it.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


PLATO already said nuclear and I agree. Not renewable but it will last for at least a century or two.

Fossil fuels is used quite a bit in electricity generation and those could be switched to other things (nuclear or whatever) without the use of hydrogen cells, yet aren't.


They are not an energy source and in many countries (say the US), by replacing cars by hydrogen fueled one, you'd just be moving the problem from the car to the power plant.

[Kuciwalker]

And power plants are more efficient, in terms of both resource use and CO2 generation. All you need is an efficient battery.

[Dauphin]

Aren't lithium batteries (such as those in phones) something ridiculous like 99.9% efficient.

[Kuciwalker]

Okay, all you need is an efficient battery with sufficient power density that doesn't cost too much to be economical. I assume it's the third category that eliminates lithium batteries.

[Arrian]

Raising CAFE standards

Small step, but good nonetheless.

-Arrian

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Okay, all you need is an efficient battery with sufficient power density that doesn't cost too much to be economical. I assume it's the third category that eliminates lithium batteries.

I wasn't meaning to be pedantic, I was asking as I thought you may have been paying more close attention to developments than I have.

I think lithium batteries are getting to the point/size/economy now where they can make decent electric vehicles with them. Of course decent by electrical cars standards is debatable.

[Kuciwalker]

I don't really know much about battery tech.

[snoopy369]

One huge problem with lithium is they drain out quickly... they're working on that and have made improvements, but it's still a ways out.

(A lithium AA battery will lose charge if not charged within a relatively short period of time, as most lithium batteries are currently made. The "Precharged" lithium batteries that are currently becoming more popular largely solve this problem, but it is not perfect yet and I believe some efficiency is lost, in addition to considerable expense.)

Going on vacation and coming back to find your car (parked in the lot at the airport) has lost its charge would sort of suck...

[Dauphin]

People who have electric cars would do so because they want to be green and would, therefore, not be flying. They would take the train.

[Dinner]

On an interesting note in the 1990's Brazil was a big importer of oil and it had a lot of farmers who were going bankrupt trying to compete against subsidized farmers in the EU and US. It found a way to both become energy independent and put its farmers to work. It mandated all cars sold had to run on a mostly ethanol based fuel which was blended with a small amount of gasoline. This massively increased domestic ethanol demand and the farmers went to work growing sugarcane used to make that ethanol. Now Brazil is a net oil exporter.