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  • Finnish unions screwing up BAD

    So we had a bit of emerging crisis here with nurses that is now settled. One union, which represents almost half of all the nurses here wanted a considerable raise. They first talked about 24%-25% raise, that would be directed at the basic salary. So the actual raise would be quite a bit more, since there's all kinds of bonuses for night work and so forth, percentages for personal portion of the salary based on experience, time of service and so forth.

    So the union was drumming that they are slaves (yes, they really did use that term), and was threatning to go for mass resignation unless their terms were met. Well, it was a weapon for the negotiation, not necessarily what they really thought as the final price. So that's _considerable_ raise and amount of money the municipalities were supposed to come up with. Other worker's unions had come in terms with the employers a long time ago, but this one union kept on hyping and advertising.

    Let's rewind a bit to the last parliamental election. The government that was supposed to be formed, it's always 2 big parties in it and 1 big party in the opposition. It's a matter of the centre party and social democrats or coalition party forming it. SDP is usually there, but this time they didn't get enough votes so the centre party and the coalition party formed the government. Coalition party is closest to the Democratic party in the US, considered right wing in here (we don't have an equivalent for the Republicans).

    The coalition party campagned for better salary for low paying jobs that is predominantly occupied by women. So they took nurses as their example, saying they would support their salary raises. Coalition party won the elections.

    So back to unions and salary negotiations. Mass resignation was the weapon, and so the government actually voted for a law that would allow them to force some of the nurses to work (or they'd have to pay fines). We have a shortage of nurses, and the resignation woudl have meant thousands, and we're a country of 5 million people so this is a very considerable amount of hospital people. The resignations also included places such as ICUs (for kids as well), maternity wards and so forth. The union _refused_ to cooperate with sheltered(?) work, which basically means they will still help to the degree that for example ICU wouldn't shut down. So they _denied_ this cooperation.

    So the government came up with an emergency law, because they figured they have their first priority and responsibility for the patients, as in they can't let people die in case thousands of professionals just resign becuase the want 1/4 raise (on their basic salary none of the less). The employer side was naturally able to benefit from this, because they knew the law would go into place, so it might have stalled the negotiation. However, the situation was, when the resignation starts, people also start to die.

    This very ethical way of doing things of course had ramifications. Pregnant clients who were in risk had to be flown to Sweden, some ICU patients had to be moved to other wards (which is dangerous) and so forth. So it was a game with lives the union and the employers were playing.

    THe point is, the demand of quarter raise was totally unreasonable and VERY unrealistic. OK, they said that this only concerns us, this union, no one else, so there is enough money to make it up. However, that's not how real life works, the hospitals won't pay their staff according to what union they belong to. It would effectively mean similar raises to _everyone_. And the next round of negotiations? Then you have teachers, cops, researchers and everyone else demanding the same thing. Impossible.

    SO... at the last moment, they came to resolution. The union cheered, claiming they got what they wanted. 22%-28% raises were announced. They were drinking shampagn and advertising that they were real heroes, even though they were kind of holding patients as hostages, which in itself was ****ing disgusting(!!).

    However, today the employer side says that apparently this union has difficulties with thier calculations, because the substantive raise is actually about 16%-18%, spread to 4 years, which means it is about the same as everyone else had.

    2 things happened here that should be realized. The union held patients as hostages and LIED TO THEIR OWN MEMBERS as well. They took all the credit for massive raises, which didn't even happen. So they lied to their own members, of course this resulted into thousands of people joining this union before, because they did such a good job.

    So this whole drama, that might have resulted into deaths of few patients (due to high stress, moving of patients and so forth) actually was a game the union played, and they lied about the results afterwards as well. It's all they were looking for, but they wanted a high profile case. OK? The real stooges in this one were their own members!! They're prolly so stupid they won't even realize they were just had, big time.

    I think this whole thing has turned a new page of disgusting, and I definitely think these commie *****es that lead this union should go to prison, they're freaking criminals!
    In da butt.
    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

  • #2
    In case someone is thinking, here's what I think about it:

    - I think they deserve a good raise
    - I think we can give some fields that are predominantly occupied by women more for a while. Usually the jobs occupied by men pay more (technology and other industry of the like), so if we're going to incline to one direction, let's give these jobs more that women usually do. It's fair and in order.
    - I think the union has the right to fight in general
    - I think the union SHOULD look for the benefit of their own members, that's what it's there for

    But this isn't what really happened. This is what the union _talked_ about, but it wasn't even their real agenda. And no, I don't think we should really risk the health of patients, they have paid taxes, they have a RIGHT for this service. Their life is more important than someone demanding unrealistic raises. Why not just ask for 50% while you're at it? What's stopping anyone?

    The aftermath is what revealed the truth, that the union launched a propaganda campaign that was aimed at their own members, that was the key and the goal and you can see why they did it and that they really did plan it to go like this and screw their own members over. So no, this had nothing to do with fighting for your benefits, this had everything to do with yet another union playing a dirty game for their own self interest AS a union (not as a collective of members) and they wanted political leverage. It's totally screwed up and I do think they should be investigated and if there's a possibility to give charges? For the full capacity of the punishment, please.

    If it was up to me, I'd order the resignation of the leaders of this union and everyone who planned this propaganda with the best of their knowledge what they were doing. That, or the union should be dismantled as a criminal organization. Either way. The leaders need to go. Really. They're hurting everyone, especially their own freaking members.
    In da butt.
    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

    Comment


    • #3
      Geez dude. A double Pekka post.
      "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
      "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

      Comment


      • #4
        The coalition party campagned for better salary for low paying jobs that is predominantly occupied by women. So they took nurses as their example, saying they would support their salary raises.
        They never did. This is post-election media spin (started up by IL and YLE), and it's sad to see the voting public took it so widely for reality that even you (who usually smell BS from a 5-mile range) will believe and repeat it as a fact.


        How many nurses do you know which are working in the public sector, by the way?

        Comment


        • #5
          VJ, Support, as in mental support, as in support the principle. That is what they said, though they didn't promise they would support as in force hte money there, because it isn't up to them at the end anyway. So yeah, there was a media spin as to what they really meant it was clear too, it's not like it's been retroactively interpreted into their favor.

          How many nurses I know? Wrong question, I know tens and tens of nurses, as I've done research in hospital, including several different wards . So quite many, actually.
          In da butt.
          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
          "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

          Comment


          • #6
            VJ, there was tons of media spins, like "public opinion" about the siutation where "Finns support nurses" in that fight. Yeah, probably most Finns would like them to get a raise. However, do they also want it to go down like the union threatened? Now, the people I know, everyone said NO to that question. SO it was a question of what the question really is.

            So thanks to tabloid ****,... no in fact, how did people think it was the public opinion again? Is it really that easy? I guess so.
            In da butt.
            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

            Comment


            • #7
              You know, just pay them more. It doesn't matter if nursing doesn't take a lot of education and in the end they come out to be payed better than university professors. It's a supply and demand issue. Want someone to wipe your ass? Pay!

              Where did the idea that someone has a right to someone else's labour come from is beyond me. Those opposing the rises for the nurses are the communists here, which means you too Pekka.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pekka
                VJ, Support, as in mental support, as in support the principle. That is what they said, though they didn't promise they would support as in force hte money there, because it isn't up to them at the end anyway. So yeah, there was a media spin as to what they really meant it was clear too, it's not like it's been retroactively interpreted into their favor.
                Yes, media spin on what "they" really meant, and media spin on who "they" really are.

                There was absolutely no official statement from national coalition as a whole or the chairman of the party wrt the wages of nurses in the public sector. One person who was campaigning for MP was interviewed on one tabloid where he was asked among MPs from all other parties whether nurses would "deserve a big raise". They all said yes. The interview was then forgotten, until it suddenly got drummed up by IL and YLE when it seemed apparent that nat. coalition would be in the government. The way how it has been spun into the general sentiment of National Coalition in particular promising X amount of money to all nurses in public sector is 100% post-election spin-BS.

                There was no specific support
                Exactly.

                How many nurses I know? Wrong question, I know tens and tens of nurses, as I've done research in hospital, including several different wards . So quite many, actually.
                You're pretty ignorant on the history of their wages, then. The goverment has squeezed their inflation-adjusted wage from every year since 1991, always making a public statement that unfortunately due to budgetary problems and weak state of the economy cuts have to be made, but significant increase in wages will be offered in compensation within a few years time.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by VetLegion
                  You know, just pay them more. It doesn't matter if nursing doesn't take a lot of education and in the end they come out to be payed better than university professors. It's a supply and demand issue. Want someone to wipe your ass? Pay!

                  Where did the idea that someone has a right to someone else's labour come from is beyond me. Those opposing the rises for the nurses are the communists here, which means you too Pekka.
                  Exactly. The supply has gone very dry indeed during the last 3-5 years because the inflation-adjusted wages have actually gone down for so long. We have a situation where strong, kind and good people have finished the 3+ year education required to become a nurse because it is their vocation only to become so disillusioned about realizing that even janitors earn more that they have actually emigrated and earn top $$$ overseas. Meanwhile, the press is wondering why our health care system is so ****ed up with all the long lines to hospital treatment, even while our government-employed nurses are so overworked.

                  Pekka:
                  I honestly have no idea what the public opinion is about the subject, but I presume you are in a minority among Finnish voters when you're outraged about the pay rise the government accepted. Among my IRL friends, people who personally know at least a single nurse and thus know the history of their relation with the government wrt wages generally support the pay increase and people who don't are a bit baffled, but aren't too committed either way.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pekka
                    So thanks to tabloid ****
                    Yeah, I'm pretty disgusted at how Iltalehti spun the crisis, too. They were severely pressurizing this particular union to strike, making bold headlines how "the whole Finland demands a pay-rise!" without any polls or references, and when the union was actually proclaiming that strike was imminent if the requested raise would not be made, they suddenly did a 180°-turnaround and made very emotional and demonizing news stories of how the greedy nurses would get people/little children/pregnant women/babies killed because of their strike.

                    EDIT: Also, the goverment has really ****ed up by not trying to freeze (or rather, keep control of) wages of other occupations while the nurses are getting their relative pay back to the levels they were in the 80s. We could be having pretty murderous inflation after a year or so, just in time for the upcoming international economic downturn.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      VJ, well, I do consider if the leader of the party is in debate, that he talks for the party, not for himself. So as far as that support, yes, I do consider it meaning the party, not one person.

                      About their wages... where was I talking about their wages? Where was I being ignorant exactly? Did I claim somewhere that they have big wages? No. The only thing I said that the demanded raise was ridiculous considering there are other professionals as well.

                      Something that the little Croatian ****** don't understand when it comes to healthcare and jobs in general. It's not only the nurses who actually provide this magical care for the patient. It's actually a large amount of all kinds of professionals, most underpaid, most deserving a raise, and without their work and tasks, none of this hospital thing would work. There's all kinds of tasks in hospital alone that aren't done by nurses. And no, their education level is nothing special. I mean I guess they have ****ty level of edcuation in Croatia, but in here, it's not actually that high. It's rather normal.

                      And you didn't get the point about public opinion and the raise in salary. Like I said, most Finns must have supporetd the raise. But not the measures that might have been taken, if they would have become reality, with patient care going down down down, ICU kids dying unnecessarily and so forth, then you perhaps can summon these friends of yours who say they support the way it's being done? I don't think so. Salary raise, OK, the measures threatened with, not OK.

                      And by public opinion I meant how the media talks about this support of the public. Just like YOU are now saying I'm in some kind of minority by saying that the hostage situation would have been unacceptable.

                      How would I not know what the situation with the nurses are, I've actually spent months WITH nurses. I do know, and about ignorance to their wages, hey, I have a higher education than they do, my work requires as much more skill and knowledge as theirs at least, I actually get paid LESS than they do or did before. So I know the theoretical situation. I know exactly how little money I have and how all the time the purchasing power seems less and less, while the rent goes up every year. So sure.

                      What kind of measure you would like to use against nurses? My job requires PhD (I know, I don't have one yet but I'm a working researcher, a position that requires and assumes the degree), I have way more studies than nurses do, I also get to work overtime and I don't get paid a cent to do it nor am I entitled to other bonuses. I would assume the benefits are also lower because I have none. Well I do get office suplies if I need them. What else? Oh yeah, there's also no future in it, and to advance to higher positions such as professor is extremely difficult since someone has to die first and then everyone fights for it, and even the current job is very unstable, because it's based on per project condition, that is if there is no new projects coming up or TEKES/investors aren't into it, guess what, no job either.

                      But this is hardly the point. I chose my path and I'm quite happy with it. If I want more money, I choose another job. But I'm not ignorant about their wages. Hey, maybe they suck, but it's much more than I get. Or are they doing a job that is way more important? Well, without the support of other fields, the hospitals won't be running either.

                      oh and PS. I did state that I supported their raise. And no, I didn't demand a raise for myself.
                      In da butt.
                      "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                      THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                      "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What kind of measure you would like to use against nurses? My job requires PhD (I know, I don't have one yet but I'm a working researcher, a position that requires and assumes the degree), I have way more studies than nurses do, I also get to work overtime and I don't get paid a cent to do it nor am I entitled to other bonuses.


                        Hey buddy, you're not as useful as nurses. I hope you can live with it because it is a FACT. Don't harm yourself, I'm not saying you're a useless person. I'm saying that researchers may and may not produce useful research. It's a gamble. Nurses on the other hand do useful work on a daily basis.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          VetLegion, careful. I'm on your side, when it comes to supply and demand of labor. The problem is, I also think that employers should be able to outright fire employees for striking, with no consequences. Granted, it's unrealistic for the hospitals to fire thousands of nurses in Finland, but applied to another situation - say, a steelworkers strike in the US - mass firings could certainly be contemplated.

                          If you want to try to attack Pekka with a supply and demand argument, then I certainly hope you support the ramifications of said argument.
                          Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
                          Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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                          • #14
                            Mass-firing striking employees is so 19th century. It caused communism, you know. Communism=bad.

                            How are employees supposed to fight for their rights, if they risk termination without concequences?
                            I've allways wanted to play "Russ Meyer's Civilization"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by David Floyd
                              VetLegion, careful. I'm on your side, when it comes to supply and demand of labor. The problem is, I also think that employers should be able to outright fire employees for striking, with no consequences. Granted, it's unrealistic for the hospitals to fire thousands of nurses in Finland, but applied to another situation - say, a steelworkers strike in the US - mass firings could certainly be contemplated.

                              If you want to try to attack Pekka with a supply and demand argument, then I certainly hope you support the ramifications of said argument.
                              I don't know for Finland but in north Europe most professions are very unionised. Like 90%. Firing them all is not really an option even if it were allowed by law.

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