Dear England, will you please stop...

[Krill]

Burden of proof is on the claimant

[OneFootInTheGrave]

well since 1998 which was our first WC, we won none, while Italians won one, we were third once, and really underperformed the other two exiting at group stage... (check this >underperformend< the same what you claim now, as we played both times a lot better in the qualifying tournament... in 2002 we needed a draw agains Ecuador?!? and had like 11 shots on target, hit the post twice, they had 1 shot on target and they won 1:0, so we didn't go through despite beating Italians in the group; last World Cup and the shambles against Australia I do not even want to remeber )but I think if we continue to play like right now... we are pretty good + out of the big countries, you have really picked on our customers, Italians

They have the worst score with us out of all countries... as Vet said 3-2-0, where they lost 3, drew twice and won none... Luckily for them that we were so crap when playing Aussies last WC so we only managed a draw, and they got to play Aussies in the second round, otherwise it would be Germans winning that world cup again... alas...

You should have picked France, as with them we have the worst score, we only drew once and lost twice... with the other "big" teams we are kind of on par... like Germans beat once, lost once, Argentina, 1-1-1, or you England 2-1-2 (prior to this round we had a negative score with you as well ) ...

anyhow this just shows the media brainwashing in UK... only 'big' countries count, and you get unrealistic expectations which finally cost you your place on one tournament even though in almost every single qualifiying tournament you go to the last game without making sure you have qualified, which after 40 years of doing so should give you some sense for respect of the international opposition, but it ain't happening.. .the Sun spell is too strong...

let's see for the previous competitions, Portugal twice, than Brazil, than Romania, Argentina, now us... and of course zeee Germans who beat you just about every time after 1966... who else??? In 1990 you had the best post '66 run with Bobby Robson, and it was the Germans also, for 1994 I don't even know who knocked you out in the qualifications... etc... but you still see yourself as better than Romanians or Swedes, Danes etc... who have almost the same, or even better, record as you do in last 20 years or so... for example Belarus just beat Holland now in the Euro qualifiying, how on earth do you think "yeah, it will be a cakewalk" And this round you drew against Macedonia at home, plus Israel away?!? (you see those times we were underperforming, we are really much better than that! ) Such level of arrogance is not present elsewhere, or at least can be forgiven as Germans for example managed to win WC twice and it's a sensation when they drop out in the quarters...

When Italians play against us (despite of their tabloids) they have much more respect

& Cort

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I just lost most of whatever respect I had for Michael Owen. He really is an embarrassing and clueless fùcktard for making comments like that.

I just looked up his comments. I don't consider them arrogant at all, I think you're too harsh. Why should everything that is said always be politically correct? It's not like he called Croatian players morons, he said they aren't good enough to play for England, which is a matter of opinion.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Krill
Burden of proof is on the claimant

he he... well I like this topic... So since 1992 when we started to compete under our flag only...

Handball (it is a great sport widely played on the continent & elswhere in the world )... 2 Olympic Golds, twice second, once World Champions

Janica Kostelic - skier - one of the best women skiers ever, most points in a single season, most Olympic golds for an alpine skiing woman (4), retired early due to injuries...

Tennis:
Goran Ivanisevic, yes...that one Wimbledon at the end of the carrer was nice... we still have an OK tennis team lineup, as long as they are not injured or fighting, as for this years Davis Cup against UK
Won Davis Cup in 2005
Iva Majoli won Roland Garros in 1996
(comparing to the Brits - what have either your man or women won sice WWII??? )

Waterpolo (another sport played a lot on the Continent), Current World Champions, were once silver on the Olympics (and that is all in all underperformance too, considering the usual expectations )

Basketball 1 Olympic Siver, 2 bronzes in European Championships, i bronze from a World Championship (and we underperformed badly!!! )

Football, - well only 1 third place, but a great memory, hoping for better... not easy though, as you know yourself ...

Blanka Vlasic, currently best woman high jumper

And I apologize to the others in the small print, like Pesalov - our Olympic Gold weight lifter, Ivica Kostelic, with his Silver on the last Olympics in combination, Duje Draganja, Milos Milosevic, Gordan Gozulj medal winners in swimming, Stipe Drvis, Boxing world Champ in light heavyweight, and if you want a "limited audience" sport like cricket... than we have a whole slew of medals in "bocanje" (no idea how you call that in English, but French, Italians, Spanish play it too... )

+ maybe Vet can fill me in on what I missed...

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Dauphin
How many world cups have Croatia won?

Please tell me you're not being serious.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by VetLegion


I just looked up his comments. I don't consider them arrogant at all, I think you're too harsh. Why should everything that is said always be politically correct? It's not like he called Croatian players morons, he said they aren't good enough to play for England, which is a matter of opinion.

sure and the opinion is that "it is all in the mind" as in, if they played like they could they would have us for breakfast... sure it is an opinion, but after being knocked out from the competition just for "glory" in our case, to say something like this is pretty arrogant, especially as the English have at most 4 players who are really good right now, but the rest is "so so"... Those four being, Rooney (despite of his temperament), Gerrard, Terry and Beckham (even unfit he showed on Wed, why he should not have been dropped)... So from the rest, Scott Carson, Micah Richards, Wayne Bridge, Joleon Lescott, Sol Campbell (good but pretty old), Gareth Barry, Frank Lampard, Peter Crouch, Shaun Wright-Phillips, Joe Cole there is not a single Croatian who would replace one of those... well that is just plain ignorant...

so for him to make this claim just shows how much attention he pays to his opponents, while his Newcastle are getting hammered home and away, but he still has a status of a star earned 5 years ago... and well, I have only one comment - good for us, or any English opponent...

[Cort Haus]

Croatia have had some good men's tennis players, but apart from Goran, it seems to me that too many of them have relied on being outrageously tall and leaning heavily on their unstoppable serve.

Serbia must be the best tennis nation per capita at the moment.

{EDIT for horrendously embarrassing typo} Djokovic;
Janković
Ivanović

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Djokovic... if some Serbs read Djukanovic (Montenegro prime minister ) they would not like it

Yes, Serbs are having it pretty good right now, and they were nowhere until last year... especially women

Djokovic is excellent too, on our side I just hope that Mario Ancic gets his act together and stops injuring himself every year for a few months break, to get into top 10 for a while longer... while Ivo & Ivo are both getting old, even though Karlovic is finally starting to play better now that he is approaching 30

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave he he... well I like this topic... So since 1992 when we started to compete under our flag only...

I'd emphasise that. Only 4.5 million and around since 1992. Plus a couple of times we really had some bad luck or results would have been better (but OK, everyone says that).

And I apologize to the others in the small print, like Pesalov - our Olympic Gold weight lifter, Ivica Kostelic, with his Silver on the last Olympics in combination, Duje Draganja, Milos Milosevic, Gordan Gozulj medal winners in swimming, Stipe Drvis, Boxing world Champ in light heavyweight,

There's also rowing, where Skelin brothers won a Silver on the last Olympics. If you consider fighting a sport, there's Mirko Filipovic CroCop who is world class.

We generally kick ass at team sports, but I'm glad individual sports are looking good.

than we have a whole slew of medals in "bocanje" (no idea how you call that in English, but French, Italians, Spanish play it too... )

It's called Bocce (I looked it up). A true mediterranean sport. A bit of wine, a lot of talk, and throwing stuff away

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by VetLegion


I just looked up his comments. I don't consider them arrogant at all, I think you're too harsh. Why should everything that is said always be politically correct? It's not like he called Croatian players morons, he said they aren't good enough to play for England, which is a matter of opinion.

It's not a matter of PC, it's a matter of cold analysis. His comments don't seem to be grounded in logic, so I can only assume that they are grounded in some form of emotional self-delusion. I settled on arrogance, but perhaps that's hasty. Perhaps it's some other kind of blindness.

When you lose 5-2 to someone over the home and away legs, and when any objective observer can see that you've been outplayed by a superior brand of football, there's no logic in the claim that no player from the team of the victors is worthy of a place in the team of the vanquished.

England can't keep the ball. They never really have done since I started watching them in the early 70's. They were a good team in 1970 (relative to the rest of the world) and a lucky team in 66. They were a half-decent side in 1990, and have been effective at grinding out results to get to a few QFs before going out on penalties, but like Germany, (except for the Muller-Beckenbauer years) they never actually played good-looking football. The difference is that Germany are able to take their stodge through to finals and win.

What I've admired about the good Croatian sides of the last 10 years is what I admire about Arsene Wenger's sides. They play good, fluid, pass-and-move, along-the-ground, possession football. I haven't seem England do this in my 35 years of watching them, and it's because of the way English kids are coached.

In England small kids (I remember myself as an 8-9 year old) are expected to play 11-a-side on a full size pitch where the only players that are any good are those that can run the fastest and kick the ball the furthest. I was quick, so I didn't do too badly, but we were never taught technique, dribbling, passing, control, skill. Just kick and run. Or hoof and hope.

A decent manager might take England further than McClaren. They might even give Croatia, Ukraine and Belarus a run for their money, but for me to enjoy England's football like I can enjoy the football of Croatia, or Turkey at their peak, and how I can enjoy my club's football, there will have to be a fundamental change in the way English footballers learn their trade.

[/rant]

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
Djokovic... if some Serbs read Djukanovic (Montenegro prime minister ) they would not like it

ZOMG. Edited. Fixed.

Please excuse me while I go and leap off a bridge in shame. A terrible typo, and an appalling slur on Serbia. I really must be more careful when posting drunk.

Mind you, you should have seen how I spelt Ana's name first time.

[MikeH]

At least 4 of the players playing for England last week wouldn't make it into the England team. Hmm.

[SmartFart]

Originally posted by VetLegion

It's called Bocce (I looked it up). A true mediterranean sport. A bit of wine, a lot of talk, and throwing stuff away

I guess I could try this one, the wine part if nothing else

Just read Owen's comment and I strongly disagree. Eduardo could find a place as an England starter. I bet he couldn't get far worse as a goalkeeper than both Carson and Robinson.

[Cort Haus]

To be fair to Carson, he is a generally a better keeper than that performance suggested. He was a bag of nerves, having been thrown into a huge game with little experience at that level. I watched him play for Charlton last season and he made some impressive saves.

England are struggling for experienced goalies though, with Robinson and James having both been crap. England used to have some great keepers - Banks, Shilton, Clemence, Seaman.

[MikeH]

He made some great saves in that game in the second half to be fair. We could have lost by a few more.