The new Anti-Semitism

[Arrian]

By the way, your Agathon quote is a smear, given that you left out the context.

I disagree with the guy about nearly everything, but man, that's crap.

-Arrian

[Sirotnikov]

No. There are other factors a person can hold as important for the (de)legitimization of the foundation of a nation state.

Let's forget for a moment the legitimization over the foundations (since it was perfectly legitimate and legal at the time )

Let's talk about the deligitimization of the existance of a Jewish Nation State, as opposed to other (nation) states. Is that somehow justifiable?


You seem to have misread the article, as the writer acknowledges in the end that Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism are not the same thing, and only share some common themes in regards to some specific arguments that are not universal even within "Anti-Zionist" views. [/quote]

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Arrian
By the way, your Agathon quote is a smear, given that you left out the context.

I disagree with the guy about nearly everything, but man, that's crap.

-Arrian

Heh. I've been meaning to say this for awhile.

[Arrian]

If the laws of Israel vis-a-vis the Jewishness of the state match up with laws of another state, I don't think that other state should get a free pass while Israel is criticized, no.

Of course, Israel is involved in a conflict and in the course of that conflict, Israel often attempts to take the moral high ground, based on various arguments. For instance "the only Democracy in the ME!" or somesuch. Israel often talks loudly about how it's better than its opponents. Leaving aside for just a moment that I actually think it *is* better most of the time, if Israel is going to make such claims in the context of the dispute, then its legitimacy (or lack thereof) is fair game. Quit whining about it.

-Arrian

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Nothing about Israel is very unique.

How many other states were created for ethnic groups where the vast majority of said group didn't reside anywhere near the new state?

[Zoid]

OMG, this article is so full of crap... "Ohh look at us joos. We're being oppressed again. We're heading for a second holocaust and noone cares!! The arabs and the lefties are mean to us... Complain, complain, complain..."

Really get a life you whiny *****...

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Arrian
What countries are you talking about, specifically? Perhaps we can discuss them.
-Arrian

Hey, it's your statement, you back it up.

You said: "there is the rather unique way in which modern Israel came to be" and you mentioned "the results, and the impact on the region even today,".

I responded to the impact on the region today bit.
You clarified:

"I'm talking about the creation of the state of Israel from the Mandate of Palestine by the United Nations."


Please explain, how was the creation of Israel unique and different (comparing it to other nations born during the 20th century), and why do you think it de-legitimizes its creation/existence?

Otherwise I have nothing to respond to.

Originally posted by Arrian
By the way, your Agathon quote is a smear, given that you left out the context.
I disagree with the guy about nearly everything, but man, that's crap.
-Arrian

It's slightly under the belt

But the link is right there, so you can easily see it in context and decide for yourself.


But I think he definitely deserves heat for formulating a sentence that way. It smells of unsolved aggression He could have definitely put it less bluntly, or even omit that sentence completely, and still keep the original meaning of the text:

e.g.: " If you keep calling people anti-semites for frivolous reasons, then the accusation will eventually lose its effectiveness and the real anti-semites will be able to act unchecked. It's like the goy who cried wolf. "

I do not suspect him of being an anti-semite though.

Just an overly avid follower of 'worker's rights' and other socialist mumbo


Also he was particularly annoying to me when I put it , and I rarely checked in poly long enough to find a new sig ever since.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Zoid
OMG, this article is so full of crap... "Ohh look at us joos. We're being oppressed again. We're heading for a second holocaust and noone cares!! The arabs and the lefties are mean to us... Complain, complain, complain..."

Really get a life you whiny *****...

Complaints: They are so particularistic, those Jews, so preoccupied with their “own.” Why are they so clannish and anachronistic when we need a world of solidarity and love? Really, they make themselves into a “problem.” If the so-called “Jewish problem” is singular in some way, it is their own doing and usually covered up by special pleading.

[Riesstiu IV]

Hey, Sirotnikov. If you need a new sig material use this:

Originally posted by Riesstiu IV
Maybe if Jews hadn't killed Jesus and destroyed the World Trade Center, there would be a lot less anti-semitism.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov


Complaints: They are so particularistic, those Jews, so preoccupied with their “own.” Why are they so clannish and anachronistic when we need a world of solidarity and love? Really, they make themselves into a “problem.” If the so-called “Jewish problem” is singular in some way, it is their own doing and usually covered up by special pleading.

I just think it's amazing that after 59 years of opressing palestinians it's the jews that we should feel sorry for...

[uberloz]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov


Complaints: They are so particularistic, those Jews, so preoccupied with their “own.” Why are they so clannish and anachronistic when we need a world of solidarity and love? Really, they make themselves into a “problem.” If the so-called “Jewish problem” is singular in some way, it is their own doing and usually covered up by special pleading.

I wasn't going to post here until I saw you do this.

Is this the only answer people can expect from you if they have any criticism?

[Zoid]

It's the only answer anyone can get from rabid zionists while debating this issue. Every criticism of Teh State of Israel is anti-semitic and therefore not worthy of debate. Only heaps of guilt trippin' and shaming opponents into silence.

[Arrian]

Hey, it's your statement, you back it up.

You said: "there is the rather unique way in which modern Israel came to be" and you mentioned "the results, and the impact on the region even today,".

I responded to the impact on the region today bit.
You clarified:

"I'm talking about the creation of the state of Israel from the Mandate of Palestine by the United Nations."

Please explain, how was the creation of Israel unique and different (comparing it to other nations born during the 20th century), and why do you think it de-legitimizes its creation/existence?

Ok. Jewish immigration to Palestine + zionist campaigning for a Jewish state + UN = creation of Israel in Palestine, something that was vehemently opposed by the majority of the population, a population I might add that had no say in the matter, due to a disfunctional imperial government (Ottoman Empire) and/or administration of their lands by overseas Imperial powers (Britain) or the UN.

That's pretty unique, IMO. Now, what nations were created during the 20th century that you think are comparable?

As for Agathon, it's true that you included a link to the thread showing that you're smearing him.

-Arrian

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Kontiki
How many other states were created for ethnic groups where the vast majority of said group didn't reside anywhere near the new state?

I was actually referring to the definition of a "Jewish State" and the special status non-citizen Jews receive by law.

To answer your question:

Jews were almost unique in that they were a 'nationless' people, but with a deep historical and cultural connection to Israel. What ever minimal presense existed in Israel per-se, was held back by local rulers.

A future state of Palestine will surely be another good example, of people who were displaced and prevented from setting up a national homeland for a long time, getting back to where they belong.

Also, if the Roma gypsies ever get a state, it will be a similar process.

To bring historic examples of an unrelated ethnic group creating a state where another ethnic group once been - Japan is a good example. An influx of immigrants from China / Korea, that totally destroyed the original inhabitants.

Not that the arab presense in pre-1947 palestine can be compared in political or ethnical cohesivenes to an actual ethno-political group, IMO. But let's not go there


Please explain what in your argument makes Israel any less legitimate to exist

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Arrian


Valid target, sorry. Questioning the legitimacy of the state of Israel =! anti-semitism.

I stopped reading here.

-Arrian

I would agree with the article that questioning whether Israel should exist or not is akin to anti-semitism.

The author makes some strong caveats in the first paragraph which I think are quite necessary for this topic and quite accurate. Israel has done a lot of messed up things, and the author himself recognizes this. But saying Israel should be erased from the map or questioning its very existence I think crosses a line.

Is it anti-German to say there should be no such thing as "Germany"? Yea, I think so.