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Shoot the messenger (the "Santa Clause doesn't exist" problem)

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  • Shoot the messenger (the "Santa Clause doesn't exist" problem)

    This is something that's always bothered me, and that's people's tendency to shoot the messenger, or bearer of bad (or rather, unwanted, even if good) news.

    When you start seriously studying human nature, you come to the conclusion that most of our behaviours are genetically programmed, specially our social behaviours. Every little twitch, hesitation, emotion, judgement, attraction, repulsion, and decision is, somewhere or the other, built on a very solid evolutionary substratum - that of genetic advantage (or, in the case of culture, of memetic advantage, but that's much more controversial, so I'll leave that aside for now).

    I've noticed that whenever I point out that a given way of behaving which is associated, in "popular culture" or "popular perception", with some BS value like "love", or the like, and show how it has evolved genetically, or how most of our emotions and judgements - such as our ability to appreciate art, music, literature, sculpture, or a good pair of breasts - are the result of genetic selection, and have no intrinsic value whatsoever, people get resentful.

    I don't know what exactly it is that they're resentful of, just that most people almost violently oppose any attempt to reduce the more "sacred" "values" of popular perception to their genetic justification, or even an attempt to try to find out what those genetic justifications may have been.

    It's almost as if it's some sort of religious taboo, as if scientists are being told, "Thou shalt NOT try to touch the realm of human emotion or what was till now called 'subjective' experience."

    When I point out, for instance, that

    1) the courtship utility of a diamond ring lies precisely in the fact that it is completely without any survival utility whatsoever, and that it is prohibitively expensive, therefore making it a good indicator of a number of desirable genetic traits, or
    2) that men and women have an in-built "cheating" circuit which makes us prone to cheating in relationships (because that's what's genetically most advantageous - a woman's best interest, for example, lies in having a monogamous relationship with a good provider, and then cheating on him with a fitter male, so that she has the advantage of both, good from one male, and the ministrations of another foolish enough to take care of them), or
    3) that men have an in-built tendency for coalitionary violence against other groups of men (it goes back a long way, all the way back to chimps and gorillas)

    whenever topics relating to these things come up (say, when discussion relationships, or some war somewhere), people suddenly become very, very defensive of their beliefs. Now this is usually when my opinion is sought, or when I'm part of a group which is talking about this.

    Well, fine, so you disagree. I'm fine with that. But why the hell do you have to start resenting me for stating what I consider obvious, specially when you asked for it in the first place? I don't have any problem in letting you wallow in your delusions of "true love forever" or whatnot (humans aren't naturally suited to lifelong monogamy, we're most probably built for serial monogamy, with each bond lasting long enough to secure the future of the children enough that the man's investment in courtship and other mating expenses is recouped by the increased probability of his genes' survival in the form of better survival chances for the children), I'll let you state it to your heart's content, hell, I'll even withdraw from the discussion when I realise that it'd be trivial for me to completely cream you because I have facts, logic, and empirical evidence on my side.

    Then WHY, for the love of GOD, do you start to resent ME when it was YOU who asked for my opinion in the FIRST DAMN PLACE?! Why do you have to mouth platitudes like "you can't reduce emotions to science", or "emotions are beyond science", or whatever bullcrap your head has been filled with, in defence of whatever it is you believe, when I'm not even attacking it to begin with? You asked for it, now it turns our you can't deal with it, how the hell is that my fault?

    It's a bit like that problem of telling children that Santa Claus doesn't exist, or of atheists telling religious people that Sky Daddy doesn't exist. If either of them believed it in the primal way that, say, a tribal believed in the existence of his deity who demanded a goat sacrifice, or we believe in the existence of Mount Everest, then a doubter wouldn't be a problem - they'd treat him the same way we'd treat someone who doubted the existence of Mount Everest - as a total loony. But I suspect that it's precisely that they don't really believe in what they're saying, and that I'm making this deception plain, that there is this resentment.

  • #2
    When you start seriously studying human nature, you come to the conclusion that most of our behaviours are genetically programmed, specially our social behaviours.
    I think that's very one-sided. You completely ignore what I'd call "cultural impact", which is another big factor.
    Blah

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm the last person to deny the impact of culture, but many small things, such as our assessment of social status, or attractiveness, which can be done in split seconds, are much more genetic than cultural. The cultural expressions may differ wildly, but the underlying justifications are usually pretty constant.

      For instance, the utility of an expensive and pointless gift during courtship, as a courtship tool, lies almost entirely in the fact that it is completely useless for any purpose other than that of display, and because they are tremendously resource-intensive. Diamond rings are a great example. Other than their use by women to gain social status ("My man has gigantic resources to waste on me, look at my ring, and bow before your social superior, for I have the more resourceful man"), they have no intrinsic use. A sack of potatoes would be far more useful, practically, or from the POV of survival, but they'd make a horrible, horrible gift.


      But does anyone like being told that when the topic comes up? NO! In fact, most people hate being told this. Finally, then end up turning on me, as if I were personally responsible for the reality being what it is.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think it's pretty clear that we give value to things, but that doesn't mean the process where we do this is generally genetically pre-determined like for example we often associate certain characteristics of men/women with being a good father/mother = good for having children etc. But that IMO isn't the same as assigning value to something like a diamond, expensive cars, clothes etc.

        Esp. if you argue that certain things have no practical value, then why should the fact that we still value them be caused genetically. The advantage they provide (social status) is hardly genetical.

        Well, maybe I just misunderstand what you're on to.
        Blah

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't understand why people run things. I don't think they really do. I think cats and the rest sit back and laugh their asses off.
          Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
          "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
          He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

          Comment


          • #6
            this kind of reminds me a little of the April Fools Joke (Civ Junction)...

            you see, Aneeshm, YOU were one to the first to promote the idea of a breakaway forum. (The messenger) But then when people blatently rejected your ridiculous idea (like me) you got extremely defensive and attacked me calling me a ,"Traitor to the Poly OTF." So in effect you were indeed the messenger and YOU were the one who shot first.

            Point is, AneeshM, just becasue I dont post in half (re: ALL) of the threads you post in, does not mean i do not read them, and do not take me for the ignorant fool that i sometimes portray on here. Yes it appears that you are the messenger but it is usually YOU that starts shooting first when anyone disagrees with the viewpoint that you bring up.

            This is why all your threads are famously called "ANEESHM THREADS." It is a neverending cycle of bull**** that will continue when you take offense to posts, like mine, when in fact i (and others) are stating truth.
            Order of the Fly
            Those that cannot curse, cannot heal.

            Comment


            • #7
              The problem is that you're not actually revealing facts to people, aneeshm. You're giving your own opinion, which you believe to be based upon solid evidence. But when you give your opinion as if it is fact, people get resentful and angry because they think you're being an arrogant *****.

              It's not like the Santa Claus problem, because Santa Claus not existing is a pretty well established fact. That is to say, there is no evidence to suggest that Santa Claus exists and Santa Claus was never posited as an explanation for anything within the physical universe; he is purely an invented fiction.

              The various theories that evolutionary psychologists have, on the other hand, may be quite well supported and plausible, but are not so concrete as Santa Claus' nonexistence. They are dependent upon further experimentation and testing.
              Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
              "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lorizael
                It's not like the Santa Claus problem, because Santa Claus not existing is a pretty well established fact. That is to say, there is no evidence to suggest that Santa Claus exists and Santa Claus was never posited as an explanation for anything within the physical universe; he is purely an invented fiction.
                You just completely destroyed my world view
                Blah

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wait, wait, wait! What's this about Santa Claus again?
                  Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                  "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                  He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BeBro
                    I think it's pretty clear that we give value to things, but that doesn't mean the process where we do this is generally genetically pre-determined like for example we often associate certain characteristics of men/women with being a good father/mother = good for having children etc. But that IMO isn't the same as assigning value to something like a diamond, expensive cars, clothes etc.

                    Esp. if you argue that certain things have no practical value, then why should the fact that we still value them be caused genetically. The advantage they provide (social status) is hardly genetical.

                    Well, maybe I just misunderstand what you're on to.
                    OK, I messed up that explanation pretty horribly.




                    Let me try again. The basic idea behind this is "the handicap principle".

                    The peacock's tail is such a good indicator of health precisely because it is so expensive for the peacock to maintain, and because it doesn't seem to provide much of a survival advantage at all (only a reproductive one). That is, a healthier peacock will tend to have a larger, better groomed, and more symmetric tail. It's something he can't fake beyond a point (that point being where the survival disadvantages outweigh the reproductive advantages), so it keeps him honest. This way, the female can get a pretty good idea of which guy is the healthiest.

                    Similarly, the diamond ring is like that. Intrinsically, it is pretty pointless. But from the POV of the guy giving it, it has utility, because it can get him the girl. In fact, that is pretty much its only utility for him. And this utility is derived from the fact that it is not really useful as anything except an indicator, (because were it universally useful (in the sense of benefits outweighing costs), then it'd be universal among humans) to indicate to the girl that he's willing to invest resources, and also to indicate his monetary status. For the girl, it's an indicator of the type of man, and of his wealth, so it has that utility. For the guy, it can get the girl, so it has that utility. But both of these courtship utilities are there only because the diamond is, intrinsically, useless.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AAHZ
                      this kind of reminds me a little of the April Fools Joke (Civ Junction)...

                      you see, Aneeshm, YOU were one to the first to promote the idea of a breakaway forum. (The messenger) But then when people blatently rejected your ridiculous idea (like me) you got extremely defensive and attacked me calling me a ,"Traitor to the Poly OTF." So in effect you were indeed the messenger and YOU were the one who shot first.

                      Point is, AneeshM, just becasue I dont post in half (re: ALL) of the threads you post in, does not mean i do not read them, and do not take me for the ignorant fool that i sometimes portray on here. Yes it appears that you are the messenger but it is usually YOU that starts shooting first when anyone disagrees with the viewpoint that you bring up.

                      This is why all your threads are famously called "ANEESHM THREADS." It is a neverending cycle of bull**** that will continue when you take offense to posts, like mine, when in fact i (and others) are stating truth.
                      WTF AAHZ?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've thought that many times.
                        It will be funny if/when limestone replaces diamonds as the coveted rock.
                        Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                        "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                        He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lorizael

                          The problem is that you're not actually revealing facts to people, aneeshm. You're giving your own opinion, which you believe to be based upon solid evidence. But when you give your opinion as if it is fact, people get resentful and angry because they think you're being an arrogant *****.
                          I don't give my opinions at all unless asked, and even then, I don't give them as fact, I make it clear that they're my opinions, and I then provide my reasons for holding them.

                          Originally posted by Lorizael

                          It's not like the Santa Claus problem, because Santa Claus not existing is a pretty well established fact. That is to say, there is no evidence to suggest that Santa Claus exists and Santa Claus was never posited as an explanation for anything within the physical universe; he is purely an invented fiction.
                          Correct.

                          Originally posted by Lorizael

                          The various theories that evolutionary psychologists have, on the other hand, may be quite well supported and plausible, but are not so concrete as Santa Claus' nonexistence. They are dependent upon further experimentation and testing.
                          Correct. That is why I am always open to being proven wrong. If anyone can find a flaw in my thinking, instead of attacking him, I will shake his hand and thank him for not letting me persist in delusion. However, others do not display the same open-mindedness, even when it is they who have solicited my opinion in the first place.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ANEESHM
                            This is something that's always bothered me, and that's people's tendency to shoot the messenger, or bearer of bad (or rather, unwanted, even if good) news.


                            AAHZ
                            this kind of reminds me a little of the April Fools Joke (Civ Junction)...

                            you see, Aneeshm, YOU were one to the first to promote the idea of a breakaway forum. (The messenger) But then when people blatently rejected your ridiculous idea (like me) you got extremely defensive and attacked me calling me a ,"Traitor to the Poly OTF." So in effect you were indeed the messenger and YOU were the one who shot first.


                            pieceâ„¢
                            Order of the Fly
                            Those that cannot curse, cannot heal.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by aneeshm
                              A sack of potatoes would be far more useful, practically, or from the POV of survival, but they'd make a horrible, horrible gift.
                              Taking a woman out to dinner is far more romantic than giving her a sack of spuds.
                              One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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