Who should I be outraged at? The status of the USA

[Vesayen]

Pekka, I am not depressed. I know it is better then most places.

I am however upset that it seems things are falling apart. The constitution has been torn to shreds, the big issue is that the "rule of law" seems to be dissapearing, the government functioning on the written law and not the will of individuals. How long before America faces serious peril of it's liberty dissapearing?

The Jews in Germany told themselves that what would happen could never happen. Germany showed us even "civilized" first world nations can change themselves fundamentally and slide to facism. We don't have a crippling economic recesion or our national pride destroyer as Germany did after WW1, but that does not mean it cannot happen, only, more slowly.

Massive surveilance of civilians? Secret prisons? Torture? Hell America has proboably been doing this all since WW2 but it seems to have reved up in recent years.

All the institutions and mechanisms which are supposed to protect our rights seem to have failed, with little prompting, if we got into a war with a more powerful hostile nation in the future, our rights could dissapear wholesale overnight.

I am not jealous of the elite. I feel bad for those who get screwed unjustly now and fear for my own future.



Wiglaf: The value of the dollar is collapsing, our industry is all going overseas(or already has). The dollars from the outsourcing may be in American hands but that only has value as long as international law is respected. What happens if not too far down the road China(the biggest holder of American debt) calls it in? What happens if something else happens on an international scale where it ceases to matter who has the dollars, but who has the actual goods and means of production?

When a promise is no longer respected, would you rather have in your hand, a piece of paper which says you own something, or the thing itself?

[Theben]

All of the above.

Blame Bush for being only interested in what's good for himself and his cronies, blame the courts for allowing a judicial coup-de-etat of the 2000 election, blame the legislature for handing over unprecedented powers the the executive, blame business for funding the repugs and most media outlets, blame the people for voting for Bush twice, enough votes for there to even be a question of the outcome.
And blame the Democrats for being unable to find a presidental candidate more appealing than Shrub. That's ****ing embarassing.

[Sandman]

The US has a bad case of conservatives. All big civs get 'em, unfortunately.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Vesayen
Pekka, I am not depressed. I know it is better then most places.

I am however upset that it seems things are falling apart. The constitution has been torn to shreds, the big issue is that the "rule of law" seems to be dissapearing, the government functioning on the written law and not the will of individuals. How long before America faces serious peril of it's liberty dissapearing?

It's the liberty that is causing it. As I said above, in these cases, it is usually the thing that people least want to give up that is causing the problem.

Americans have an aversion to using government to solve problems, preferring instead private solutions, which favour "liberty". Of course, if you weaken democratic government, which everyone has an equal say in, in favour of the private market, where some people have much more power and influence than others, it is no surprise that the latter will use their influence to accrue more to themselves and less to everyone else.

You aren't going to be able to fix your problems if you don't realize that your political system is completely bent. Other countries have more or less successful means for preventing wealth from having undue influence in democratic politics. The US doesn't really have that. Hence a lot of people don't bother voting, because they know their issues will never be on the table. The purpose of democratic politics in the US is to buy off the upper middle classes, and leave everyone else to fend for themselves. The candidates and platforms have been bought long before a voter gets to stand in a voting booth.

Ralph Nader is probably the only politician in the US who really understands this. However, he is portrayed as a lunatic radical, when he is actually pretty conservative by international standards. Of course he's portrayed that way because the media has been bought and paid for and is now under no obligation to give all sides a fair hearing. The electoral system you have makes very few races competitive, which is a further disincentive to vote.

But there's nothing you can do, except move to Canada or some other country. Whoever you vote for will be another authoritarian who makes the right noises and panders to the wealthiest sector of the population. The Democrats just aren't as blatant about it as the Republicans are.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Agathon
As usual with these things the blame ought to be levelled at the things that people would least like to blame or give up.

So there's no question of "returning to truly American values", since these are what have caused the current debacle. Ask yourself in what sort of country would a venal idiot like Bush even get a significant proportion of the votes, and you have your answer.

QFT. America needs to totally rethink itself. There's no sense in looking back for guidance. Bush should be much less popular than he is. I think that says a lot.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Patroklos
In any case about half the US population thinks the economy is in recession. Why would they think something that stupid when it is obviously not the case? Who told them that?

The media

No the media did not tell them that.

[Pekka]

Well, IMO you aren't going to be able to fix the problems, just like none of us are.

You can vote, you can do the democratic stuff, but at the end, but you don't have any real power versus the state. One of the biggest reasons we gave up torture in Europe and public execution is because the state, well more king Kings etc got heat from it. It's not because it was inhumane, though that was a small part of it. We've become more individualist societies, and that's when the society itself becomes invisible. We feel liberty because of it, but when it comes to the bottom line, the violence and power is still in the hands of the state and it can not be take down.

The biggest reason why we don't need torture or public execution and beatings is because people comply. We comply way more than we used to. THe only reason we rise up is if the price of booze goes up or if there's some war somewhere. But even then, peaceful demos can be broken with violence from the state, so no, you can't fix things really and you don't have THAT kind of freedom even if you think you do. I mean unless of course you own the army and the police, then you would have an equal chance. Before that? No, not really. So I'm really saying that you don't any kind of freedom that is ... objective or follows an ideal, your freedom is accepted as long as you're following the rules and guidelines of the society you live in. THere's no room for you to step out of it, or you will feel the consequences from embarrasment to being socially unacceptable, in more serious cases violence and death. The key is your compliance. As long as you comply, you will have little problems, but this is up to you. When you don't comply, that second you will become a problem and it won't be ignored by the state. This is power and it overrides your freedom.

As far as things falling apart.... you know, I think it's just this certain discourse some people live in, I don't think things are really falling apart. The paradigm hasn't yet changed, even though things have temporarily changed a bit.

When you accept what you think is now wrong, that's when the paradigm changes. Before that? Not really, I mean these torture things and everything, most people aren't for it. It's something that happens but right now it's still temporary, if it continues and things escalate and the vast majority of people become in terms with it, then it's a different era, something you would see as things falling apart. But right now, I just don't see it so much. I think things are pretty much the way they used to be, for example the bigger issues as far as changing eras, I think it's the climate change and what we will learn from this issue and also how it will affect our lives and business.

[Agathon]

Vesayen. Your complaints about the state just proved my point.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Pekka
You can vote, you can do the democratic stuff, but at the end, but you don't have any real power versus the state.

Voting is not power against the state. I think looking at the USA today is evidence of that. To have a good democracy you need to have a population that thinks a certain way. They should be distrustful of that state and all authority in general. It doesn't matter how much you say you believe in a democratic government. If your country is made up of people who are authoritarian in their overall thinking your government will be authoritarian even if everyone can vote.

[Impaler[WrG]]

The fate of a Nation rests solely in the hearts of its people and how they come together to form or as is often the case simply tolerate the institutions that are the pillars of society. The decay and corruption of government and civil society is always proceeded by a failing of the public will to hold it to high standards. People get the government they acquiesce too.

[Pekka]

Kid, yes and I never claimed it was power against the state, quite the contrary, it enforces the position of it, because you have complied to play by the rules it has set.

[Perfection]

Originally posted by Vesayen
I am however upset that it seems things are falling apart. The constitution has been torn to shreds, the big issue is that the "rule of law" seems to be dissapearing, the government functioning on the written law and not the will of individuals. How long before America faces serious peril of it's liberty dissapearing?

This statement is silly! If decisions are being based on written law instead of the will of individuals how the frickity buttnuts can the consitution (the biggest written law of the land) be torn apart!

Originally posted by Vesayen
The Jews in Germany told themselves that what would happen could never happen. Germany showed us even "civilized" first world nations can change themselves fundamentally and slide to facism. We don't have a crippling economic recesion or our national pride destroyer as Germany did after WW1, but that does not mean it cannot happen, only, more slowly.

Sure, but we're not in the danger zone.

Originally posted by Vesayen
Massive surveilance of civilians? Secret prisons? Torture? Hell America has proboably been doing this all since WW2 but it seems to have reved up in recent years.

When Bush leaves office this will all go away. That's the brilliance behind term limits.

Originally posted by Vesayen
All the institutions and mechanisms which are supposed to protect our rights seem to have failed, with little prompting, if we got into a war with a more powerful hostile nation in the future, our rights could dissapear wholesale overnight.

Oh come on, there's a been a crapton of rights being respected here. The biggest issue now deals with long term detainment of certain noncitizens within a small subminority. Definitely not a good thing, but not the failure of all mechanisms of rights pretection.

Originally posted by Vesayen
Wiglaf: The value of the dollar is collapsing, our industry is all going overseas(or already has). The dollars from the outsourcing may be in American hands but that only has value as long as international law is respected. What happens if not too far down the road China(the biggest holder of American debt) calls it in?

They screw themselves over. And since the Chinese government isn't a gang of utter retards, they won't do it. The dollar isn't collapsing. It certainly is weakening, and that may be permanent but we're not going to suddenly see dollars become worthless.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Pekka
Kid, yes and I never claimed it was power against the state, quite the contrary, it enforces the position of it, because you have complied to play by the rules it has set.

My point was that it's not the people vs the state. It's democratic society vs authoritarianism. The problem with authoritarian society isn't the state it's the people. The state is a subset of the people.

[Pekka]

SUre, if that's the way you want to imagine it, sure, why not. But not necessarily always. It's like the people who are being ruled by a harsh king, who uses his iron fist. But I know what you meant though.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Pekka
It's like the people who are being ruled by a harsh king, who uses his iron fist.

The US is not like that, but even when there is a person like that in power there are usually people who support him. When the people decide not to support him anymore change can take place.