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  • Say it isn't so Holland

    AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - The Netherlands will ban the sale of hallucinogenic mushrooms, the government announced Friday, rolling back an element of the country's permissive drug policy after a teenager on a school visit jumped to her death in an incident blamed on the fungus.

    The decision will go into effect within several months, said Wim van der Weegen, a Justice Ministry spokesman.

    "The problem with mushrooms is that their effect is unpredictable," he said, and shops caught selling them will be closed.

    Marijuana and hashish are technically illegal in the Netherlands, but police do not bother to prosecute people for possession of small amounts, and it is sold openly in designated cafes.

    Possession of "hard" drugs like cocaine, LSD and Ecstasy is illegal. So-called "magic" mushrooms" will fall somewhere in the middle.

    "We're not talking about a non-prosecution policy, but we'll be targeting sellers" Van der Weegen said.

    Psilocybin, the main active chemical in the mushrooms, has been illegal under international law since 1971. However, fresh, unprocessed mushrooms continued to be sold legally in the Netherlands along with herbal medicines in so-called "smart-shops," on the theory that it was impossible to determine how much of the naturally occurring substance any given mushroom contains.

    Van der Weegen said that was also the reason the system proved unworkable: "It's impossible to estimate what amount will have what effect."

    Calls for a re-evaluation arose after Gaelle Caroff, a 17-year-old visiting from France, from a building in Amsterdam in March after eating psychedelic mushrooms.

    Caroff's parents blamed their daughter's death on hallucinations brought on by the mushrooms, though the teenager had suffered from psychiatric problems in the past. Photographs of her youthful face were splashed across newspapers around the country.

    Since Caroff's death other dramatic stories involving mushrooms have been reported in the Dutch press:

    -A British tourist, 22, ran amok in a hotel, breaking his window and slicing his hand badly.

    -An Icelandic tourist, 19, thought he was being chased and jumped from a balcony, breaking both his legs.

    -A Danish tourist, 29, drove his car wildly through a campground, narrowly missing people sleeping in their tents.

    "It's a shame, the media really blew this up into a big issue," said Chloe Collette, owner of the FullMoon smart-shop in Amsterdam.

    She said all the incidents had involved the use of multiple drugs - against the advice of sellers - but it was the mushrooms that were blamed.

    "Used in the right way, there's no problem with mushrooms: The biggest problem is with alcohol, in my opinion."

    Most mushrooms sold in Amsterdam are sold to tourists, and the city's liberal drug policies and legalized prostitution are major tourist attractions.

    In May, the country's health minister, Ab Klink, undertook a study of the problems and called for suggestions from the industry and Amsterdam's city government.

    Murat Kucuksen, whose farm Procare supplies about half the psychedelic mushrooms on the Dutch market, said he stood to lose several million euros invested in setting up his legal growing facilities.

    He predicted the trade will move underground, prices will rise, and dealers will sell dried mushrooms or LSD as a substitute, with no guidance for tourists.

    "So you'll have a rise in incidents but they won't be recorded as mushroom-related, and the politicians can declare victory," he said.




    So a handful of morons ruin everyone's fun?
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

  • #2
    I'm not necessarily saying they're wrong about this, but those incidents are pretty tame. Any drunk could've done that stuff.

    I think some caution wrt hallucinogens is justified, though.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Arrian

      I think some caution wrt hallucinogens is justified, though.
      They should be left to the professionals.
      "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
      "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

      Comment


      • #4
        More like Heil-land.

        Comment


        • #5
          Fascists!
          "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
          "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

          Comment


          • #6
            He predicted the trade will move underground, prices will rise, and dealers will sell dried mushrooms or LSD as a substitute, with no guidance for tourists.

            "So you'll have a rise in incidents but they won't be recorded as mushroom-related, and the politicians can declare victory," he said.
            QFT


            What is the difference between these incidents and any incident involving having too much alcohol?

            It's people's own f**ing responsibility.

            Also, the guy taking shrooms and then driving should sit in jail for years.

            Comment


            • #7
              Say it isn't so Holland


              I thought this was about Ayaan Hirsi Ali being forced to return from her U.S. exile back to Holland where she's at much greater risk, because the Dutch government has refused to provide for her personal safety abroad.

              But yeah, first things first.

              Comment


              • #8
                Weezie has priorities.
                "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Winston
                  Say it isn't so Holland


                  I thought this was about Ayaan Hirsi Ali being forced to return from her U.S. exile back to Holland where she's at much greater risk, because the Dutch government has refused to provide for her personal safety abroad.

                  But yeah, first things first.
                  That thread can be found

                  here
                  "post reported"Winston, on the barricades for freedom of speech
                  "I don't like laws all over the world. Doesn't mean I am going to do anything but post about it."Jon Miller

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ok thanks, germanos. I missed that one.

                    Carry on.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sirotnikov

                      QFT


                      What is the difference between these incidents and any incident involving having too much alcohol?

                      It's people's own f**ing responsibility.

                      Also, the guy taking shrooms and then driving should sit in jail for years.
                      It's possible to drink only one beer and be relatively unaffected. Because of the unpredictable amount of psilocibin in the mushrooms the user can't control the effect. One mushroom could be too little or too much. One might also consider the qualitative difference between alcohol and hallucinogens. Alcohol is a general CNS depressant. It's effects on motor control, reasoning, judgement and thought processes are dose dependent. Hallucinations and psychosis generally don't occur unless alcholo is consumed in large quantities, quantities that are pretty close to fatally toxic. Most people who are not hard core big time drinkers would probably not be able to consume that much alcohol without vomitting it back up. Of course almost anyone can drink enough to the point where their judgement motor control is significantly impaired.

                      Hallucinogens are qualtitatively different in their effect on the brain. Virtually by definition the quantites needed to be consumed to have an effect are much smaller and it's generally not clear that the effects are dose dependent. I don't think it's really possible to say that X amount of psilocibin or LSD will make you a little giddy while X+ amount will make you psychotic. They're thought to work on particular receptors in the brain which themselves are present in amazingly small quantities so it doesn't take much to saturate the receptors and get a full blown effect. Furthermore since the primary effect of these substances is to disrupt the mechanism which controls the selection and flow of thought it's easy to grasp that when these substances are used the loss of judgement and reasoning will be earlier and more severe.

                      I would give almost anything to understand how they work.
                      "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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