Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pretty tough talk

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Pretty tough talk

    ...for people that won't fight.

    BERLIN - Germany's lower house of parliament voted overwhelmingly on Friday to keep 3,000 troops and six reconnaissance jets in Afghanistan for another year despite mounting public skepticism about the mission.

    The vote in the 613-seat Bundestag - 454-79 with 48 abstentions - was the final step needed to extend the mission.

    It came after Chancellor Angela Merkel pressed hard for renewal of the legislative mandate for participation in NATO's International Security Assistance Force, or ISAF.

    The Netherlands and Canada face a similar decision in the coming months.

    The Dutch government is expected to decide this fall whether to extend its mission that is currently due to end next summer. About 1,700 Dutch troops are in Afghanistan.

    The mandate for Canada's mission expires in February 2009.


    The Canadian government has indicated it has until next April to tell NATO whether there will be an extension. Opposition parties in Canada are against an extension; the New Democratic party wants Canadian troops withdrawn even sooner.

    On Friday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced the establishment of a five-member panel to examine the future role of Canada in Afghanistan.

    ISAF has about 37,000 troops in Afghanistan but only Canada, the United States, Britain and the Netherlands have taken on combat roles in the violent southern regions, where the Taliban insurgency is most active and deeply rooted.

    Canada has about 2,300 troops in Kandahar province as part of its overall commitment of 2,500 to ISAF. Seventy-one Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have died in Afghanistan since 2002.

    In contrast, most of the 2,800 German ground troops are in the quieter north of the country. Germany has resisted any suggestion they should take part in the heavier fighting in the south.

    Officials and legislators from Merkel's governing coalition of conservative Christian Democrats and centre-left Social Democrats argued that a pullout would open the door for Taliban and Al-Qaida to once again use Afghanistan as a base for terrorism - and endanger years of progress in rebuilding the country.

    Social Democratic legislator Gert Weissenkirchen said a German refusal could lead to abandonment of Afghanistan by other western countries.

    "Afghanistan would again fall into the hands of the Taliban," he said. "Therefore I ask you to think it over carefully. A No vote would lead to giving terrorism a chance to further establish itself, to insult people, to repress women. We want to put an end to that and so we need extension of the ISAF mandate."

    Under German law, any foreign deployment must be approved by parliament.

    Development Minister Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul, a left-wing Social Democrat, said troops were needed to support rebuilding of the school system and give Afghan children - including girls who were banned from schools by the Taliban regime ousted in 2001 - the chance to get an education.

    "This is real development that we are moving forward with," Wieczorek-Zeul said.

    "Seventy per cent of the population is under 25 and we want, through building up of the educational system and above all through elementary education, to give children and youth - and especially girls - the chance to go to school."

    Public opinion polls recently indicate most Germans want the troops to come home following attacks on their forces and kidnappings of their citizens in Afghanistan. Members of the environmentalist Greens and the Left party - former East German communist and disgruntled Social Democrats - also opposed the extension.

    Merkel, who did not speak during the debate, has argued forcefully for staying the course, saying Germany must not "leave Afghanistan in the hands of the terrorists."

    The all-weather Tornado jets from the Luftwaffe's Tactical Reconnaissance Wing 51 "Immelmann," supported by 280 personnel, are based near Mazar-e-Sharif in northern Afghanistan.

    The German air force says the jets can provide faster, farther-ranging photographic information to assist security forces on the ground than can pilotless drones.

    Another vote will be held later this fall on a mandate on Germany's participation in the U.S.-led anti-terror Operation Enduring Freedom. Germany participation has consisted of anti-terrorist ship patrols off the Horn of Africa.




    Nice of them to watch our backs though.
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

  • #2
    Talk about going from one extreme to the other. Kicking their @ss in WWII really turned the Germans into pansies.
    EViiiiiiL!!! - Mermaid Man

    Comment


    • #3
      It's amazing how little that the German public will allow its politicians to do, even though the cause is just and the country is bound by treaty to help.

      This informs my thinking about what some say about building a viable coalition in other circumstances, such as Iraq. F.e., what significant contributions did the US lose in Iraq by not working fully through the UN? Only Canada and France?
      Last edited by DanS; October 12, 2007, 15:44.
      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

      Comment


      • #4
        I, for one, appreciate "wimpy" Germany...

        -Arrian
        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

        Comment


        • #5
          Well, if the germans knew that the products of their military industrial complex was going to be used in active fighting, I guess we would face an invasion .

          Denmark is sending four Leopards to support our troops (~600).
          With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

          Steven Weinberg

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DanS
            This informs my thinking about what some say about building a viable coalition in other circumstances, such as Iraq. F.e., what significant contributions did the US lose in Iraq by not working fully through the UN? Only Canada and France?
            France is like Germany on this issue. They won't fight. I've nagged on the issue before but I think the NATO members that have refused to step up should be shamed at every opportunity. Either it is an alliance or it isn't.

            I'm not sure we would have joined in Iraq even if through the UN. PM Chretien was unlikely to support that effort. Particularly with Bush in the WH. GWB is political poison on this side of the border.
            "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
            "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DanS
              It's amazing how little that the German public will allow its politicians to do, even though the cause is just and the country is bound by treaty to help.

              This informs my thinking about what some say about building a viable coalition in other circumstances, such as Iraq. F.e., what significant contributions did the US lose in Iraq by not working fully through the UN? Only Canada and France?
              For starters, the invasion would not be deemed "illegal" by half the world. Furthermore perhaps a concerted effort might have affected the strategy used in Iraq. That is, it might have been handled better so the incessant chaos that reigns there could have been prevented. Other nations could have sent more forces/support etc.
              "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
              "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

              Comment


              • #8
                Well, France and NATO are a special consideration.

                But what has pvssified the French since Kosovo (or if Kosovo isn't boots-on-the-ground enough for you, Gulf War I)? Was it merely Chirac?
                Last edited by DanS; October 12, 2007, 16:07.
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Traianvs
                  For starters, the invasion would not be deemed "illegal" by half the world. Furthermore perhaps a concerted effort might have affected the strategy used in Iraq. That is, it might have been handled better so the incessant chaos that reigns there could have been prevented. Other nations could have sent more forces/support etc.
                  No offense, but practically speaking, that's not much. I can sense that you want it to be big. But it isn't.

                  Just look at Afghanistan, where all of those pieces are in place and more. Yet the German public will not allow even a peacekeeping role.
                  Last edited by DanS; October 12, 2007, 16:12.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DanS


                    No offense, but practically speaking, that's not much. I can sense that you want it to be big. But it isn't.

                    Just look at Afghanistan, where all of those pieces are in place and more.
                    Nobody wants to invest a lot of effort in Afghanistan. Not very surprising seeing there's nothing much to gain there in economical terms. Imagine what would have happened if the US had sent to Afghanistan the forces and ordnance sent to Iraq in the past four years. Chances are high that it might have been pacified, no? Afghanistan is such a low priority that it's pointless to be there right now. Either you do it all the way or you don't.
                    "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
                    "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Your argument doesn't make any sense. I could understand if the UK says, "we're already doing our part in Iraq, so don't bother us with Afghanistan," but Germany doesn't have any of its resources divided between theaters. Despite this, Germany still cannot sustain public support for non-combat roles in a just war. Why?

                      (By the way, I note that the Brits haven't said this very much, as far as I can tell. The major contributions in blood in Afghanistan come from the US, naturally, plus the UK and Canada.)
                      Last edited by DanS; October 12, 2007, 16:28.
                      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I personally don't want Canada in Afghanistan but I understand how we got there. Obstensibly we were required to help under our treaty agreements, which is why the position of other NATO members astounds me. If they weren't going to help why did they authorize the mission in the first place?
                        "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                        "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Why don't you want Canada in Afghanistan?
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DanS
                            Why don't you want Canada in Afghanistan?


                            I'm sorry Dan but I'm about exhausted on that topic. We discussed it at length in the last CanPol thread:

                            "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                            "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just curious.

                              Nobody reads those CanPol threads, anyway.
                              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X