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  • Armenian Genocide Thread.

    "Its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror."
    — President Bush

    Access to airfields and roads "would very much be put at risk if this resolution passes and Turkey reacts as strongly as we believe they will."
    — Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates

    [b]
    Genocide resolution clears hurdle amid fierce lobbying
    [/b/A divided House Foreign Affairs Committee approves the emotionally charged measure, despite vocal opposition by Turkey and President Bush.

    WASHINGTON -- The long struggle over formal U.S. recognition that the killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks was a genocide reached a turning point Wednesday, with a House committee calling on the president to "accurately characterize the systematic and deliberate annihilation of 1,500,000 Armenians as genocide."

    A divided House Foreign Affairs Committee approved the emotionally charged measure, despite fierce lobbying by Turkey and President Bush, who sternly warned that it would offend an important ally and harm U.S. security interests.

    Armenian groups in the United States have pressed for the resolution, while Turkish politicians have threatened to retaliate -- which could mean cutting off U.S. access to a crucial Turkish air base that is used to supply U.S. troops in Iraq.

    The bipartisan 27-21 vote came in a packed room that included four survivors of the World War I-era genocide, three in their 90s and one who was 102. "Somebody's got to speak for the people I see in front of me," Rep. Albio Sires (D-N.J.) said in urging the resolution's passage.

    Congress has wrestled for years with the issue, which has been closely watched by Armenian Americans, many of whom live in California. This year, the resolution, which does not have to be approved by the president, appears to stand its best chance of passing.

    The resolution has 225 cosponsors in the House -- more than a majority and the most support it has ever received, according to its chief sponsor, Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D-Burbank). Nancy Pelosi (D-San Francisco), who became House speaker with the Democratic takeover of Congress this year, has long championed the issue.

    The bill faces a tougher time in the Senate. It has the support of Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) and Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), but it has drawn just 32 cosponsors, well short of the votes needed to pass.

    Schiff called the lobbying by the White House and Turkey the "most intensive legislative fight" he had ever been in. Still, he said, "The truth sometimes wins, and it won today."

    The Turkish government disputes that a genocide took place, contending that during and after the First World War, Armenians as well as Turks were casualties of the war, famine and disease. But historical evidence and authoritative research support the term, and The Times' policy is to refer to the deaths as genocide.

    Opponents of the measure warned that it could threaten U.S. interests in the Middle East, endangering U.S. military supplies that pass through Incirlik air base near the southern Turkish city of Adana on their way to American troops in Iraq. Turkey is one of the United States' most important allies in the Muslim world.

    "We're talking about kicking the one ally that's helping us over there in the face right now," said Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.). "It just doesn't make any sense to me."

    Rep. Robert Wexler (D-Fla.) said that "America can ill-afford to lose the support of an ally as important as Turkey at this critical juncture."

    But Rep. Christopher H. Smith (R-N.J.) responded, "I consider myself a friend of Turkey. But friends don't let friends commit crimes against humanity -- genocide -- and then act as witting or unwitting accomplices in their denial."

    Rep. Brad Sherman (D-Sherman Oaks) dismissed the threats of reprisals. "We will get a few angry words out of Ankara for a few days, and then it's over," he said. "We cannot provide genocide denial as one of the perks of friendship with the United States."

    The resolution was backed by 19 Democrats, including committee Chairman Tom Lantos, a Holocaust survivor from Burlingame; and eight Republicans. Eight Democrats and 13 Republicans opposed it. All 10 Californians on the committee supported the resolution.

    Schiff said he was optimistic that the resolution would pass the House, though he predicted another tough fight. Rep. Frank Pallone Jr. (D-N.J.), co-chairman of the Congressional Caucus on Armenian Issues, said the measure would "move swiftly to the House floor and will be passed with overwhelming support." A House vote is expected before Thanksgiving.

    Similar resolutions were approved by the House in 1975 and 1984 but did not make it through the Senate. In 2000, a genocide resolution was headed to the House floor when the vote was abruptly called off at the urging of then-President Clinton.

    "This is a historic day," Bryan Ardouny, executive director of the Armenian Assembly of America, said after the vote.

    Turkish Ambassador Nabi Sensoy, who was in the audience for the vote, vowed to continue to fight, and the Turkish government said it "resents and condemns" the vote.

    "It is an irresponsible act for a committee of the House of Representatives to pass, in this manner and at an extremely critical time, a draft that will not only endanger the relations with a friendly and allied nation but also jeopardize a strategic partnership that has been cultivated for generations," the Turkish statement said. "We still hope that common sense will prevail and that the House of Representatives will not move this resolution any further."

    Nadeam Elshami, a spokesman for Pelosi, said that the committee vote "demonstrated bipartisan support for a resolution which is consistent with long-held concerns of the people of the United States about the suffering of the Armenian people."

    Hours before the vote, Bush warned that the resolution's passage would have serious consequences for U.S. foreign policy. "Its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror," Bush said on the south lawn of the White House.

    "We all deeply regret the tragic suffering of the Armenian people," he said, but added: "This resolution is not the right response to these mass killings."

    Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates also spoke out against the measure, as did a slate of past secretaries of State from both parties.

    Gates said that 70% of the supplies destined to U.S. forces in Iraq were flown through Turkey, including almost all of the new mine-resistant armored vehicles. He said access to airfields and roads "would very much be put at risk if this resolution passes and Turkey reacts as strongly as we believe they will."

    Turkey spent thousands of dollars on lobbyists -- including hiring the firm that employs former House Majority Leader Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.) -- and sent a delegation of high-ranking officials to the U.S. Capitol to buttonhole U.S. lawmakers.

    In Turkey, hundreds marched to U.S. consulates to protest the resolution, and leftist demonstrators chanted anti-American slogans at the U.S. Embassy in Ankara, Turkish media outlets reported.

    The resolution's consideration comes at a tense time, when fighting between Kurdish rebels and Turkish troops has escalated. Turkey reportedly launched airstrikes into Iraq on Wednesday, targeting Kurdish rebel positions.

    Turkish commentators have suggested that there will be reprisals if the resolution passes.

    "This decision may be a new turning point -- even the beginning of a new departure -- in Turkish-U.S. relations," commentator Sami Kohen said in the prominent newspaper Milliyet.

    If Congress passes the resolution, commentator Tamer Korkmaz said this week in the conservative newspaper Zaman, "we would not be the real losers, the U.S. would be."

    Turkish-U.S. relations have been prickly for some time. Ankara refused to allow American forces to use Incirlik to launch one flank in the invasion into Iraq in 2003. The U.S. has been reluctant to crack down on anti-Turkish Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq for fear of harming relations with Kurds, who are the most reliable U.S. allies among the Iraqis.

    On the other side, former California Gov. George Deukmejian, a Republican of Armenian descent, recorded a message supporting the resolution that was posted on the Internet by the Armenian-American Political Action Committee. Former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole (R-Kan.) urged passage of the resolution, saying that any diplomatic fallout would be transient. "Turkey and the United States have a broad and deep relationship that will survive our recognition of this historic truth," he wrote.

    The head of the worldwide Armenian Apostolic Church, His Holiness Karekin II, delivered the invocation in the House chamber earlier Wednesday, asking all to "remember the victims of the genocide."

    Both sides are expected to step up lobbying before the House vote. A few lawmakers who were once cosponsors have withdrawn their support.

    Rep. Jane Harman (D-Venice) said last week in a letter to the Foreign Affairs Committee that "a terrible crime was committed against the Armenian people," but, noting that Turkey helps to moderate extremist forces in the Middle East, concluded, "I have great concern that this is the wrong time for the Congress to consider this measure."
    The displaced Armenians died in much the same way as the Turkish troops in their first offensive against the Russians: Lack of shelter & warm clothing, lack of food, lack of medical supplies. The deaths of the Armenians might have been intentional -- but more likely is that these deaths were been due to the sheer incompetence of the Turkish goverment. Genocide is an intentional act; and I do not believe there is yet evidence that these tragic deaths were due to genocide.

    If the Turks retaliate by cutting off our air-supply lines to Iraq as a result of the pointless vote, things could get "overly interesting" in the Gulf.

  • #2
    mine was first
    Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
    Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
    giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog

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    • #3
      Originally posted by MarkG
      mine was first
      http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=170967
      Um, no it wasn't. You are both late to the party.
      "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
      "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Wezil
        Um, no it wasn't.
        check the IDs'
        Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
        Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
        giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by MarkG
          check the IDs'
          Sorry Mark, I wasn't aware you posted under the name "germanos" as well. I stand corrected.

          "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
          "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

          Comment


          • #6
            i was comparing to this thread
            Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
            Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
            giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MarkG
              i was comparing to this thread
              Now you make no sense.

              You and Zkribbler both started a thread on the same issue that Germanos already had a thread on. Correct?
              "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
              "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MarkG
                i was comparing to this thread
                I once came first in a race. Some other guy finished ahead of me, but I was comparing to the third-placed guy.
                THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
                AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
                AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
                DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LordShiva
                  I once came first in a race. Some other guy finished ahead of me, but I was comparing to the third-placed guy.
                  there was no thread with "armenia" in the title in the first page = the thread didnt have the correct content
                  Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
                  Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
                  giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MarkG
                    there was no thread with "armenia" in the title in the first page = the thread didnt have the correct content
                    I will grant you that. With people using "agressors" in the title of everything it is hard to determine what is being discussed.
                    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Wezil
                      I will grant you that. With people using "agressors" in the title of everything it is hard to determine what is being discussed.
                      yeah, i wonder who started this whole aggressor thing
                      Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
                      Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
                      giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MarkG
                        yeah, i wonder who started this whole aggressor thing
                        Some aggressor, no doubt.
                        THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
                        AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
                        AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
                        DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Didn't the EU, or a number of its members, issue a similar resolution several years ago? Did Turkey break relations with the EU then?

                          Why don't they simply issue a resolution proclaiming the United State's dealings with native americans from 1783 to 1900 as essentially genocidal?
                          "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
                            Why don't they simply issue a resolution proclaiming the United State's dealings with native americans from 1783 to 1900 as essentially genocidal?
                            Our genecide of the native Americans began closer to 1778.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              We commend you for your tireless efforts to further the cause of idiotism, and further appreciate your ability to sometimes do the right thing for all the wrong reasons. Here's a law book. Here's a history book. Please pound them on your head until you learn to see the difference.
                              This is Shireroth, and Giant Squid will brutally murder me if I ever remove this link from my signature | In the end it won't be love that saves us, it will be mathematics | So many people have this concept of God the Avenger. I see God as the ultimate sense of humor -- SlowwHand

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