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  • #16
    Re: Torture

    Originally posted by Berzerker
    If we know we have a terrorist, I have no problem torturing them and I'd do more than waterboard them. The problem is identifying actual terrorists as opposed to people we rounded up in some country because they had a gun or because we're paying out bounties. Is waterboarding too much when we aren't sure?
    You trust the govt to only torture terrorists and not to say whether your child has ADD?
    I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
    - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Patroklos
      So was I tortured by being in the front leaning rest for extended periods of time in OCS?

      Air chair at the Citadel?

      Running with my rifle over my head in training?
      You voluntarily did all that. Although there were consequences, that's what you signed up for.
      I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
      - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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      • #18
        Static pain is quite effective and it is very common and old torture technique, and it isn't done by you standing up 2 hours.
        None of those things are "standing up for two hours." In fact, they are designed to cause discomfort and physical pain. You very clearly state static positions are torture.

        I see your its ridiculous to consider basic static positions torture, and raise you even more exotic positions like "air chair" or "watching TV" are also not torture.

        You voluntarily did all that. Although there were consequences, that's what you signed up for.
        So DIs can do as they will then? If you think its torture then it doesn't matter if someone volunteers to submit to torture, the government should not be able to require it of you.
        "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Patroklos
          So DIs can do as they will then?
          DI is company commander? I forget.

          No they can't do everything. Sometimes bootcamp is harder than people thought it would be, but they can always pee the bed and get out.
          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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          • #20
            "So DIs can do as they will then? If you think its torture then it doesn't matter if someone volunteers to submit to torture, the government should not be able to require it of you."

            It's not torture because you volunteered for it. Torture requires control over the inflicted subject.
            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

            Comment

            • #21
              DI is company commander?
              Who said anything about company commanders? Since when were DIs in companies?

              It's not torture because you volunteered for it. Torture requires control over the inflicted subject.
              What about draftees? Was the US torturing all those poor guys from WWI-1970s? And again, volunteering doesn't matter, if you think those acts are torture then you shouldn't want the government engaging in them. Hazers used the "they wanted it" line too, no dice.

              I am not sure how wimpy your boot camp experiance was, but DIs in OCS have complete control over you. Legaly as well as phyisically.
              "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

              Comment

              • #22
                Re: Torture

                Originally posted by Berzerker
                If we know we have a terrorist, I have no problem torturing them and I'd do more than waterboard them. The problem is identifying actual terrorists as opposed to people we rounded up in some country because they had a gun or because we're paying out bounties. Is waterboarding too much when we aren't sure?
                i don't see how you can claim to believe in freedom, yet at the same time, think this sort of thing is ok.
                "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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                • #23
                  What if we march one of them into the room with a bombed strapped on? Is that torture?
                  Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                  "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                  He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                  • #24
                    Ron Suskind's "One Percent Doctrine" makes the point that usually terrorists are told that the Infidels are awful people who will employ torture on them. Waterboarding and other crap confirms this impression and hardens their resolve to be "martyrs," or whatever their sect calls a dead body with a shut mouth. Whereas simply offering them favors and being nice to them gives them a completely different impression of their captors, undermines their faith in their superiors (who apparently either lied or were mistaken about the Great Satan), and can get them to spill their guts surprisingly quickly. It's what the intelligence community did, with good results, long before W came along. His policies screwed everything up.
                    1011 1100
                    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                    • #25
                      Screwing things up is the one thing Bush is good at.
                      Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                      • #26
                        A look at the other side:

                        It would seem the Amish have chosen to culturally practice foregoing blame and reaching out with love and compassion to those who have caused them pain.

                        What a hard concept for me to entertain in the midst of all that I have suffered and been "taught" how to feel.

                        Yet torture (at least to the lesser psychotic amongst us) might indeed disappear in the presence of recrafting the human psyche, from birth, to react with embracing opposing views, even those that wished them dead.

                        One of my mentors, when I asked him to define evil replied: "evil is what happens when an entity tries to get rid of evil"

                        Read how the Amish responded to execution style murder of their children in one school (from USA today)

                        Page Not Found (404) | USA TODAY
                        http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-01-amish_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
                        "Pain IS Scary!!!"
                        Jayne, from Firefly

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Patroklos
                          Who said anything about company commanders? Since when were DIs in companies?
                          I don't know what a DI is I joined up about 20 years ago. Company commanders were the enlisted officers who ran the recruit companies.

                          They told us what to do and we did it. I don't consider that torture cause the worst that could happen to us is they would yell at us more I guess. Hell, we had a couple of philipino guys. They got so mad we all started laughing uncontrolably one day and there wasn't anything they could do. That wasn't torture.
                          What about draftees? Was the US torturing all those poor guys from WWI-1970s? And again, volunteering doesn't matter, if you think those acts are torture then you shouldn't want the government engaging in them. Hazers used the "they wanted it" line too, no dice.

                          I am not sure how wimpy your boot camp experiance was, but DIs in OCS have complete control over you. Legaly as well as phyisically.
                          Not really. The worst that could happen is they send you to the brig. Sending someone to the brig isn't torture.
                          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                          • #28
                            Why not extend this to murderers, rapists, drug dealers....etc.etc.?
                            They aren't terrorists?

                            You trust the govt to only torture terrorists and not to say whether your child has ADD?
                            Of course not, since you apparently didn't read my post very well, I said my problem with torture is not knowing if the people we're torturing are bad people with information we need. But I have the moral authority to kill people trying to kill me, and I even have the moral authority to torture someone who is trying to kill me if he has allies and I need information about them. This moral authority extends to government acting as my proxy. ADD has become a scam BECAUSE government subsidizes schools.

                            i don't see how you can claim to believe in freedom, yet at the same time, think this sort of thing is ok.
                            Terrorism aint an act of freedom. If some nutcase buried your kid with only a few hours of air, would you torture him to find out where he buried your kid? I would, hell ya... How is that in conflict with the definition of freedom?

                            Comment

                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Berzerker
                              ADD has become a scam BECAUSE government subsidizes schools.
                              Have you ever thought of starting a thread on this theory? I don't want to threadjack this one.
                              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                Nope, and it aint a theory. Once school districts started getting money for students with ADD, the number of students with ADD ballooned.

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