Peopling the Americas

[Berzerker]

Just watching a new docu on the National Geographic channel about how and when the Americas became populated.

The Tlingit of Alaska believe the Great Flood occurred 14,000 years ago. According to the docu Siberians did cross the Bering land bridge but were prevented from moving south because of the ice sheet covering much of north America. But about 13,500 years ago the ice sheet split and a passageway opened up. This jives well with the Tlingit legend...

Another theory says the ice age didn't impede populating the new world but in fact helped. Sea faring peoples in W Europe and E Asia could have boated around the oceans following the ice shelf with people from Asia having access to land most of the way. Ancient sites dating back that far happen to be located next to major kelp beds, the kelp is beneficial for several reasons, primarily as habitat for sea life. The ice shelf along the N Atlantic also provided rich hunting opportunities. Oh yeah, archaeologists found a 12-13,000 year old "instruction" manual for weaving, the pattern they find in baskets also appears on a rock.

Its clear by the time Europeans were arriving in more recent times, the Siberians were enjoying dominance over the New World inspite of early reports of "white" tribes. But 12-20K years ago it looks like people could have been coming to the Americas from either side of the Old World.

[SlowwHand]

The Russkies sat over there on their asses. I think they had some eskimos blocking the path, intimidating them.

[Straybow]

Maybe so, but it seems only Asiatic migrations took hold. The Vikings weren't able to make a go of it during the MWP, so I have doubts the NE coast would be more hospitable in the ice age.

[Berzerker]

The Vikes were latecomers, there's evidence of the Solutreans (18K) making the trip - spear points found in Virginia share traits with France/Spain. Thats what the expert at the Smithsonian says, he works on tools/weapons.

[Tuberski]

Geez, you guys need to read your Book of Mormons, the Americas were populated by a tribe of Israel about 3500 years ago.

Boneheads.



ACK!

[SlowwHand]

The Soul Trains?

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Straybow
Maybe so, but it seems only Asiatic migrations took hold. The Vikings weren't able to make a go of it during the MWP, so I have doubts the NE coast would be more hospitable in the ice age.

The Vikings did make a go of it, but decided the natives were too troublesome, and Greenland wasn't strong enough to support an invasion of the New World. They clearly needed their own version of Cortez

[Berzerker]

They clearly needed their own version of Cortez

If only Greenland was actually gold

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Berzerker


If only Greenland was actually gold

No, Greenland = Cuba in this analogy, except there wasn't some crazy who would take a large proportion of the men on an expedition onto the mainland against the orders of the governor, burn the ships, then use native tribes against eachother to bring down the Aztecs.

That and well... there was no equivalent to the Aztecs to rally tribes again, and no gold to be had for conquering that part of North America. (Actually, I forget if they ever found the mainland or just some of the islands.)

[Berzerker]

and no gold to be had for conquering that part of North America.

that was my point

[Tingkai]

If you're interested in this subject, you might be interested in the book 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus.

A major point made by the writer is that Native Americans were not just simple hunters and gatherers, but rather had complex societies that shaped the land. What Europeans considered pristine landscape was often extensively cultivated land left dormant as disease wiped out Native Americans.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Berzerker
The Vikes were latecomers, there's evidence of the Solutreans (18K) making the trip - spear points found in Virginia share traits with France/Spain. Thats what the expert at the Smithsonian says, he works on tools/weapons.

Hmmm, hadn't heard of that. Still, may only be a small expedition, and one that evidently failed or there would be a derivative culture with many spear points to be found instead of one chance find.

Crossing the North Atlantic is a hard and lengthy voyage compared to hopping along the coast of a Berents land bridge, much less crossing on foot. Following the edge of icepack is dangerous. Ferrying women and children requires greater supplies, probably more than they could carry in whatever vessels they had.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Tingkai
If you're interested in this subject, you might be interested in the book 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus.

He got carried away on some points but by and large it was well written and documented.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Straybow

Originally posted by Berzerker
The Vikes were latecomers, there's evidence of the Solutreans (18K) making the trip - spear points found in Virginia share traits with France/Spain. Thats what the expert at the Smithsonian says, he works on tools/weapons.

Hmmm, hadn't heard of that. Still, may only be a small expedition, and one that evidently failed or there would be a derivative culture with many spear points to be found instead of one chance find.

Crossing the North Atlantic is a hard and lengthy voyage compared to hopping along the coast of a Berents land bridge, much less crossing on foot. Following the edge of icepack is dangerous. Ferrying women and children requires greater supplies, probably more than they could carry in whatever vessels they had.

The Vikings occupied Greenland for something like 400 years. At some point they landed in New Foundland, but abandoned realtively fast the settlement after they found dealing with the natives to be problematic. (Might have something to do with their first encounter reportedly involving killing one just to see if he bled.)

After that they made occasional expeditions to Markland (Baffin Island I believe) for lumber which wasn't available in Greenland.

The trouble was that they couldn't sail straight from Europe to the New World, and really their base of exploration was the colony of a colony. They had enough trouble as it was maintaining their existance on Greenland. Now obviously, if someone had thought to put together an armada with lots of longships loaded down with warriors armed and armored in steel, they would have crushed the natives, but that would have had to happen in Norway or somewhere else and get sent over by way of Iceland and Greenland. Neither of the latter two could have afforded such an invasion force themselves.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
The trouble was that they couldn't sail straight from Europe to the New World, and really their base of exploration was the colony of a colony.

The most straight route from scandinavia to NA would actually be close to Iceland, so it wouldn't be that much of a diversion to go for supplies there.

They had enough trouble as it was maintaining their existance on Greenland.

Ehrm, no. They managed fine for several hundred years. There are theories that climate change made it impossible to stay, but a recent says that because of massive deaths due to various epidemies, there were room back in scandinavia, so they resettled there.

Now obviously, if someone had thought to put together an armada with lots of longships loaded down with warriors armed and armored in steel, they would have crushed the natives, but that would have had to happen in Norway or somewhere else and get sent over by way of Iceland and Greenland. Neither of the latter two could have afforded such an invasion force themselves.

Well, those armadas did exist, but they were busy in taking land in closer savage areas such as britain, france and russia