The reason I don't like radical feminists

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
From what I can tell, Ms. Dworkin had personal experiences that led her to the conclusions she's drawn. I can understand that. I'd prefer, however, if she laid off the generalizations.

But hey, it's a free country. I don't feel threatened by her. She's on the fringe, and will almost certainly stay there.

-Arrian

There are many was to disrespect women, besides punching them in the face. Some peoples behavior in this thread is very disrespectfull for example.

[Arrian]

There's a big problem with the way men treat women, in case you aren't aware of it. It's reality. Check it out.

The funny thing is that I'm generally on your "side" of this debate, Kid. We're having what I'd call a difference of degree.

What about people who take a statement that's meaning is clearly "we don't hate men" and turn it into the opposite? Don't let yourself of the hook, because you haven't raped anyone bud.

I used rape and other physical abuse because they were the two most obvious examples, not because they are the only forms of abuse. I'm not ignoring other things. I did add "etc" to my sentence, because I didn't want to keep typing forever, trying to think of everyway a man could mistreat a woman.

Furthermore, I have not twisted Ms. Dworkin's comments. They speak quite clearly for themselves. She said, quite clearly, that male behavior (again, WITHOUT QUALIFIERS OF ANY KIND, that I saw, anyway) is inhuman.

I understand the distinction she is drawing: that male behavior is bad, but she hopes we can change and thus she's not saying that we are inherently bad. Well golly gee, thanks, Andrea. That's sweet of you. Except you left out a huge group of men who don't mistreat women. I generally don't appreciate being lumped in with a bunch of *******s.

Now it's entirely possible that this is a case of reading only select quotes and thus not getting the whole picture of what she has said. However, those quotes come from an article you posted in which the quotes were presented as evidence that she doesn't hate men.

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
I generally don't appreciate being lumped in with a bunch of *******s.

All men recieve the same social conditioning from society. We have to try hard to overcome it. None of us is above it. She's saying we can do it. Take it as a compliment for christ sake. If anything she is being overly optimistic about men.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I just thought the "against all the evidence" was Dworkin trying to be cute.

[Arrian]

It's whatcha call a backhanded compliment, man. In other words, not really a compliment at all.

And no, all men do NOT receive the same social conditioning from society, because individual experiences vary. One's upbrining (parents, family) is crucial, and can change our interaction with the "social condition" from society at large.

Some parents may block out a lot of that societal conditioning... of course, those tend to be fundies. Others filter it and counter the bad stuff as best they can.

As a result, some guys manage to grow up without being mysoginistic bastards.

Anyway, having read up on Andrea Dworkin a bit, it seems pretty clear to me that she was big on shock value, so I'm going to let it go. Besides, there are lots of things I'd agree with her about, were she still around. I just probably wouldn't take it as far as she did. There's a reason she was a "radical" after all.

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
It's whatcha call a backhanded compliment, man. In other words, not really a compliment at all.

It's not a compliment at all. OMG, why should you have a compliment coming?! It's her saying she doesn't hate you. She knows you could be different if you weren't raised the way that you were.

One's upbrining (parents, family) is crucial, and can change our interaction with the "social condition" from society at large.

What did your parents teach you? We can only guess from your POV. Kids aren't raised like you claim they are.

As a result, some guys manage to grow up without being mysoginistic bastards.

All men grow up thinking they are superior to women. Pay attention. Why do you think people react to feminism like they do. It's because feminism is saying that that is not true.

[Kidlicious]

People take things the wrong way for a reason.

The statement was not meant for shock value, or anything like that. It was a honest straight forward statement, that a lot of people don't like, because they can't accept the truth. Since they can't accept the truth of it they twist the meaning.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Kidicious

When people aren't clear while they are bashing someone it's because they hate.

Or because they are Pekka.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Really... radical feminists have been setting the agenda for years in Sweden?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Sahlin

Sahlin has held various minister posts in Social Democratic cabinets from 1990 to 2006. She was elected new leader of the Social Democratic Party at an extra party congress on March 17, 2007, following the resignation of Göran Persson and the loss of government in the 2006 general election.[1] Should she succeed in leading the opposition to power, she will be the first female Prime Minister of Sweden.

So are the male Prime Ministers of Sweden selling out men to become second class citizens (as man-hating radical feminists apparently want to do)?

Or are we really NOT talking about man hating radical feminists being in charge of Sweden. I'm thinking its that one.

They were not in charge of the government, but some held cabinet positions, while others were influental lobbyists. One example is Margareta Winberg, who was deputy prime minister in the Socialist government. (later "expelled" to become Ambassador in Brazil).

Another is Gudrun Schyman, depicted in the hunting cartoon earlier in this thread. She was leader of the communist party that the government leaned on to get enough votes in parliament. Later she was kicked out for tax crimes (so much for communism) and started the really loony Feminist Initiative Party, where a male tax was one of the proposals.

Among the implemented achievements on the feminist agenda was the quite unique prostitution law, where it is illegal to buy sexual services but legal to sell them.

[Arrian]

It's not a compliment at all. OMG, why should you have a compliment coming?! It's her saying she doesn't hate you. She knows you could be different if you weren't raised the way that you were.

Oh, for ****'s sake. "Not a compliment at all" is an understated way of saying "an insult." What she said was insulting. I'm not terribly bothered by it, but it was insulting.

What did your parents teach you? We can only guess from your POV. Kids aren't raised like you claim they are.

WTF are you talking about? Kids aren't raised by their parents? What are you trying to say?

My parents taught me, by words and by example, to respect women as equals. This was reinforced at school and by my friends.

Given my experience, which of course is mine and mine alone, I question the idea that everyone is programmed by eeeevil society to be a rat bastard.

All men grow up thinking they are superior to women. Pay attention.

No, Kid, not all men do. Some do. Many do. I don't know how many, exactly. My simple point is that I did not, and I know others who did not. Ergo, not ALL men do. That's a vary simple thing to understand.

I am not arguing that there is nothing left for feminism to do. On the contrary, there is, and I support the continued drive for equality.

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

All men recieve the same social conditioning from society. We have to try hard to overcome it.

Everyone but you right?

Or if not, why do you hate yourself so much Kid (besides the obvious reasons)?

[Shrapnel12]

I was looking for stats of woman against man violence but in the short time I had, only found this:

Almost forgot, October (was) is domestic violence (DV) month. I didn't forget to check my facts, though. "Facts" too often rendered by women's advocates into "factoids"--facts which aren't really.

Like only men are guilty. I even heard Barry MacMichael, an innovator of New Hampshire's DV programs and prime mover of faulty factoids, claim there were 44,000 battered women last year statewide. Unless I'm missing something, that means there were 44,000 batterers--all men by her standards.


Now, I've cross-referenced census data three ways and around 140,000 men lived with women here in 1996 (married or live-in). If 44,000 abuse their mates, that's almost one in three--which implies that about all us guys are suspect. This is insultingly absurd and sexist. Look in your own social circles and pick out the one-in-three evil male mates and tell me I'm wrong. Especially when according to the New Hampshire Hospital Association, in 1996 total hospital admissions for women from all assaults--not just domestic--were just 40 with another 1,412 checked and released on an outpatient basis (includes all fights, rapes, battering).


Not exactly 44,000.


And when you hear advocates claim that domestic violence nationwide is the "leading cause of injury to women age 14 to 44," why is it that according to the U.S. Center for Disease Control, April, 1997, women were more dangerous to themselves than in danger from another--4.6% of all admissions were for overexertion or "strenuous movements," only 4.1% hospital visits by women were from all intentional assaults/homicides.

There is no breakdown in either the CDC or NH stats for how many were domestic injuries, but certainly many were from assaults by strangers or, even, other women, say mother to daughter. In any case, the actual number of domestic assaults in NH is probably more like a hundredth of the 44,000 MacMichael claims, especially considering not even four hundred sought shelter. Of course, "claim" is definitely the operative word, here, since federal domestic violence grants hinge on numbers of cases.

Exaggerating statistics means more money. And, yes, I am outright accusing women's advocates of shamelessly skewing the numbers for entitlement money. Remember the Super Bowl Sunday scare in 1993 when advocates claimed a study concluded it was the most dangerous time of year for women, that 40% more would be assaulted? Newspapers nationwide jumped on the bandwagon, calling it the "Abuse Bowl," warning women not to stay home. Fellow skeptic Ken Ringle of the Washington Post actually ran a fact check. He found there was no study, and furthermore, shelters and hotlines reported no increase, even in Buffalo, whose team was slaughtered.

It was, in fact, a lie. So when you read there are 44,000 battered women in New Hampshire, ask yourself what the definition of battering is if only 1452 women sought help for any assault, maybe half of which were from strangers and other women.

Actually, the last fight I saw was two women, and if you turn to the court briefs you'll see there are always female assaulters. An article in "USA Today" even claimed 54% of women in lesbian relationships acknowledged violence, and studies right here at the University of New Hampshire (UNH) show women initiate more domestic violence than men, plus abuse kids at double the rate of men.

Yet domestic violence is always framed as a male problem. So you have to ask yourself, men, since obviously domestic violence to advocates is mostly verbal, do you start all the arguments in your home? Maybe we could ask the New Hampshire policeman who had to turn in his gun after his wife got a restraining order for "verbal" abuse which he told me wasn't even an argument. And, gosh, when was the last time in the domestic debate anyone mentioned that, hey, once every month a lot of women cycle the entire household onto an emotional roller coaster?

One woman lawyer down South actually used PMS as a defense for assaulting a cop--and got off. Cops themselves, in fact, will tell you half the time drugs and alcohol are involved, and regardless of any rhetoric, every credible unbiased scientific study has concluded that women are just as prone to violence as men--though not as effective, mostly due to size. Yet, I know the Vermont man deaf in one ear from a frying pan, the man with photos of his bruises on file in Newport to no avail, the Rockingham County man with a court finding against his wife for assault whom the police will not stop from harassing him. Even if a man reports, it won't be taken seriously (though about one in 16 in New Hampshire shelters last year were men), and I and every boy I know were raised not to "hit girls," so the notion men hit women is ingrained socially is absurd.

I quote Canadian Senator Anne Cools, someone who has worked with domestic violence for decades, for another take--"For every abusive husband there is an abusive mother." And as long advocates insist domestic abuse is not just physical, let's frame the whole picture and do something about all the false accusations, especially those to manipulate custody.

This is another ugly head of abuse, plain and simple. In fact, my research shows that false allegations by women are all too common. You can't tell me women don't level false allegations to gain an advantage, just remember the 44,000 figure used by federally-funded advocates.

I have even suggested to the state to open an office specifically for those falsely accused. In the effort to protect women, lost is the notion that we are equals in anything insidious.

So when domestic violence advocates get serious about all forms of domestic abuse and do something about their math, I'm all ears. Until then, as a journalist--and a man--I'm simply insulted by the stinky, sexist stats.

I've heard it stated before that female on male happens as much as male on female. Can anyone help me verify this stat? Regardless, the point I'd like to make to Kid is that women are just as capable of evil. Something I have more expierence then I'd like with.

[Wezil]

Violence in society at large is the issue. Men are more likely than women to be a victim of violence in their lifetime.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
Oh, for ****'s sake. "Not a compliment at all" is an understated way of saying "an insult." What she said was insulting. I'm not terribly bothered by it, but it was insulting.

Now that is ridiculous. It wasn't a compliment so it was an insult? Come on now, give us a break here. She was simply stating the way she sees things. It's not meant to be an insult or a compliment.

No, Kid, not all men do.

Yes they do. Just because mommy and daddy tell you that men and women are equal doesn't mean that that's what you learn. Children know to pay attention to how you act. The man has control of the remote. The man decides where to eat, where to live etc.. He might ask the women's opinion sometimes, but the key is that the man asks the women for her opinion. Therefore the man is in control. Kid's read this as the man is superior. You can tell them something different, but they will go with how you act.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Yes they do. Just because mommy and daddy tell you that men and women are equal doesn't mean that that's what you learn. Children know to pay attention to how you act. The man has control of the remote. The man decides where to eat, where to live etc.. He might ask the women's opinion sometimes, but the key is that the man asks the women for her opinion. Therefore the man is in control. Kid's read this as the man is superior. You can tell them something different, but they will go with how you act.

Good points.

Except for the "remote" bit. We do that for the same reason men drive when going out as a couple. Women suck at it.