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  • The Special Relationship between the US and Britain

    Found this interesting article about the so-called special relationship and how much of a fiction this idea of a historical kinship has been between the two countries. It seemed to be more of a way for Blair to blindly follow the US than actually based on anything:



    September 19, 2007

    Op-Ed Contributor

    Our Imaginary Friend

    By GEOFFREY WHEATCROFT
    Bath, England


    WHAT are the bugles blowin’ for?” asks the soldier in Rudyard Kipling’s haunting poem. In Iraq the other day they were sounding the retreat, as the British Army departed the city of Basra amid mutual recriminations. Gen. Jack Keane, the retired vice chief of staff of the United States Army, says that the Brits messed up, while Gen. Sir Mike Jackson argues that Donald Rumsfeld’s entire plan was “intellectually bankrupt.” Then last week, Senator John Kerry sarcastically asked Gen. David Petraeus if the British had done the right thing, in which case maybe America should follow suit.

    Although General Petraeus himself predictably and properly said in London yesterday that he was proud of his British allies, President Bush says he has no intention of withdrawing from Iraq any time soon. And there is no doubt that the White House is displeased with Gordon Brown, the new prime minister, for not only pulling out of Basra but also pulling back from his predecessor’s intimate embrace of the Bush administration. Is it possible that those buglers were also sounding the last post for the Anglo-American alliance in Iraq — or even for the supposed “special relationship” between the two countries?

    This relationship has always been a curious notion. Along with the even more dubious idea that Churchill popularized of a community of “English-speaking peoples,” it is sustained by make-believe and rewritten history. Americans don’t often use the phrase, but there was an almost comical exception when Senator John McCain visited England last year. “The special relationship between our two countries will endure throughout the 21st century,” he said. “I say that with total confidence because it’s lasted for 200 years.”

    It has what? The senator’s “200 years” would take us back to the early years of the 19th century, or let’s say to 1812. What was special about the relationship that year was that the two countries were at war. Some of us take modest patriotic pride recalling the day that our brave lads burned the White House. And when he sings “The Star-Spangled Banner,” can Senator McCain have forgotten that it was a British rocket’s red glare?

    For the next century the two countries were decidedly more often on bad terms than good. A large part of the British Army was stationed in Canada to protect it from its southern neighbor, and with good reason. Before the Civil War, Sir Robert Peel warned Parliament about the grave danger of an American war; during it, the secretary of state, William Seward, wanted to declare war on England and was supposedly restrained only by Lincoln himself (“One war at a time, Mr. Seward”); after it, there was a bitter dispute about a Confederate warship built in England.

    In 1895 the two countries nearly went to war over a trivial border dispute in South America, and it was recorded at the time that in America a war with England would be the most popular of wars. And again in 1914: not only did Woodrow Wilson worry that he might need to intervene on the German side because of the British naval blockade but it was reckoned that more Americans would have wanted to fight against England than for it.

    The two did quite briefly fight together in two world wars, but only Tony Blair, after telling a grieving New York six years ago that “My father’s generation went through the blitz; they know what it is like to suffer this deep tragedy and attack,” could have added: “There was one country and one people which stood by us at that time. That country was America, and those people were the American people.” He meant the blitz in the winter of 1940-41, when the United States was conspicuously neutral.

    And yet perhaps that quaint version of history helps explain Mr. Blair’s decision to commit British troops to an invasion of Iraq. Since 1949 the two have been allies in NATO, a pact of mutual defense “to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area,” which would not appear to cover the Middle East. But then Mr. Blair believed it his duty to support Washington, because “it would be more damaging to long-term world peace and security if the Americans alone defeated Saddam Hussein than if they had international support to do so.”

    That’s quite close to saying, “Their country right or wrong,” and it is a novel doctrine. Even during the NATO years the two countries have been very far from standing side by side in each other’s every endeavor outside that North Atlantic area. In 1956, Eisenhower was appalled by the Suez caper, when the British conspired with France and Israel to attack Egypt, and pulled the rug from under the conspirators, and 10 years later the British Army did not serve in Vietnam as Lyndon Johnson had hoped.

    Even in the 1980s, Margaret Thatcher, despite her obvious kinship with Ronald Reagan, was a much less uncritical supporter of Washington than Mr. Blair later was. She was dismayed by the initial lukewarm response from Washington when Argentina invaded the Falklands, then enraged by the American invasion of Grenada.

    And she said something at that time that might usefully have been repeated later. The Western democracies use force “to preserve our way of life — we do not use it to walk into other people’s countries.” If a new law is ordained that the United States will intervene wherever there is a regime that it dislikes, Mrs. Thatcher said, “then we are going to have really terrible wars in the world.”

    She never spoke more prescient words. But at least one beneficial consequence of this really terrible war in Iraq would be if the pretense of the “special relationship” were dropped for good. We are two friendly countries, with many shared values, and some common interests. Isn’t that enough?

    Geoffrey Wheatcroft is the author of “The Controversy of Zion” and “Yo, Blair!”


    I find the Thatcher quote to be utterly facinating and brilliant forecasting.
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

  • #2
    It has what? The senator’s “200 years” would take us back to the early years of the 19th century, or let’s say to 1812. What was special about the relationship that year was that the two countries were at war. Some of us take modest patriotic pride recalling the day that our brave lads burned the White House. And when he sings “The Star-Spangled Banner,” can Senator McCain have forgotten that it was a British rocket’s red glare?



    It was silly of McCain to say 200 years. While there were definite moments of cooperation - the Jay treaty, the Monroe doctrine, - there were also times of enmity between 1783 and 1895.

    For the next century the two countries were decidedly more often on bad terms than good. A large part of the British Army was stationed in Canada to protect it from its southern neighbor, and with good reason. Before the Civil War, Sir Robert Peel warned Parliament about the grave danger of an American war; during it, the secretary of state, William Seward, wanted to declare war on England and was supposedly restrained only by Lincoln himself (“One war at a time, Mr. Seward”); after it, there was a bitter dispute about a Confederate warship built in England.

    In 1895 the two countries nearly went to war over a trivial border dispute in South America, and it was recorded at the time that in America a war with England would be the most popular of wars.


    Yup, special relationship is inapplicable up to the 1895 reconciliation.


    And again in 1914: not only did Woodrow Wilson worry that he might need to intervene on the German side because of the British naval blockade but it was reckoned that more Americans would have wanted to fight against England than for it.


    Source? AFAIK this is total BS. The debate was between pro-allied intervention, and neutrality.

    The two did quite briefly fight together in two world wars, but only Tony Blair, after telling a grieving New York six years ago that “My father’s generation went through the blitz; they know what it is like to suffer this deep tragedy and attack,” could have added: “There was one country and one people which stood by us at that time. That country was America, and those people were the American people.” He meant the blitz in the winter of 1940-41, when the United States was conspicuously neutral.


    Hmmm. The US was providing political support earlier, FDR met with Churchill to sign the Atlantic charter, and then Lend Lease started well before Pearl. The US was engaged from June 1940 in a bitter fight between isolationists who advocated neutrality and interventionists. Hitler apparently thought it was no big deal when the war with the US began, as he considered the US already efffectively at war with him.

    For the US to have DOWed Germany in say, 1940, would have meant little, as the US had no effective military yet.

    Snip - a cherry picked narrative of Blairs decisions wrt Iraq.



    In 1956, Eisenhower was appalled by the Suez caper, when the British conspired with France and Israel to attack Egypt, and pulled the rug from under the conspirators, and 10 years later the British Army did not serve in Vietnam as Lyndon Johnson had hoped.

    Even in the 1980s, Margaret Thatcher, despite her obvious kinship with Ronald Reagan, was a much less uncritical supporter of Washington than Mr. Blair later was. She was dismayed by the initial lukewarm response from Washington when Argentina invaded the Falklands, then enraged by the American invasion of Grenada.



    Four wars which are only relevant if you beleive that Blair supported the US for reasons unrelated to substantive arguements about Iraq.



    It also ignores that the US DID end up supporting the UK on the Falklands at cost to our relationships in Latin America, this despite a US admin that was over focused on Latin America, in large part due to the special relationship.

    It also ignores many instances of US-UK cooperation outside the NATO sphere, in places from Iran to the Persian Gulf to South Africa.

    (it also ignores, in its discussion of Suez, the aggression by Egypt against Israel, but thats not germane to the discussion of the US-UK relationship. It MAY be germane to the authors mindset, though)

    And she said something at that time that might usefully have been repeated later. The Western democracies use force “to preserve our way of life — we do not use it to walk into other people’s countries.” If a new law is ordained that the United States will intervene wherever there is a regime that it dislikes, Mrs. Thatcher said, “then we are going to have really terrible wars in the world.”



    Words spoken about Grenada, a country which had never invaded its neighbors, had never as a result had legally binding restrictions on its WMD programs imposed, and which never in fact HAD any WMD programs. And which, BTW, though not a democracy, also never commited genocide. IOW, it has NOTHING to do with Iraq. The author also ignores the first Gulf War, when Thatcher pressed the elder George Bush not to go soft.

    She never spoke more prescient words. But at least one beneficial consequence of this really terrible war in Iraq would be if the pretense of the “special relationship” were dropped for good. We are two friendly countries, with many shared values, and some common interests. Isn’t that enough?


    Good enough or not, it involves rewriting the entire diplomatic history of the 20th century.
    Last edited by lord of the mark; September 19, 2007, 10:35.
    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

    Comment


    • #3
      BTW, apparently Baroness Thatcher doesnt agree with Mr Wheatcroft either.

      The Independent

      "Lady Thatcher's office did not dispute her reported remarks but said she had been - and remained - in full support of the decision to oust Saddam by military means, which she always believed would be the only way to remove him. Aides said she wished that had been achieved by the first Gulf War, prompted by Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, which took place shortly after she was forced to resign as Prime Minister after losing the confidence of her cabinet.

      Her criticism of Mr Blair's methods comes as a surprise given her staunch backing for the conflict. In 2002, on a visit to America, she said she was "proud that Britain stands where we all must stand - as America's surest and staunchest ally". She told the Heritage Foundation in Washington: "Prime Minister Blair and I are, as is well known, political opponents but, in this vital matter, I salute his strong, bold leadership.""
      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

      Comment


      • #4
        But the USA finally did help the UK during the Falklands war.

        The United States was first hesistant, because the USA had a doctrine "America for Americans" which btw no one is sure of what it means, because it could be America the continent, or America the USA.

        According to it, the USA would not let foreign european powers have wars in the Americas, the USA would be against it.

        But finally they chose England over the latin american countries.

        A few years ago Bush was asking for support, asking latin american countries to join their coalition (Like Poland), quoting that doctrine (after all the USA had been attacked in 9/11) and Fox said, thanks but not, and that the doctrine had been killed by the USA when it supported England in the Falklands war.


        I think basically

        The USA = Batman
        UK = Robin

        The UK has not been strong enough to be a Batman since ww2, it is better to be a super hero sidekick of the USA, than to not be a super hero at all.
        I need a foot massage

        Comment


        • #5
          I do think that Baroness Thatcher is contradicting her previous words on the Iraq issue. The first Gulf War is something different, as it is an invasion of an ally. The second Gulf War though is to "walk into other people’s countries" and not to "preserve our way of life".

          But the USA finally did help the UK during the Falklands war.


          But initially Reagan was lukewarm about the whole thing, which did piss off Thatcher. Even when backing Britain, the US was not exactly full out in its support.
          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

          Comment


          • #6
            wiki

            "One of Thatcher's final acts in office was to put pressure on US President George H. W. Bush to deploy troops to the Middle East to drive Saddam Hussein's army out of Kuwait. Bush was somewhat apprehensive about the plan, but Thatcher's memoirs summarise her advice to him during a telephone conversation with the words, "this was no time to go wobbly!" [25]"


            Did Robin ever speak to Batman like THAT?
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
              I do think that Baroness Thatcher is contradicting her previous words on the Iraq issue. The first Gulf War is something different, as it is an invasion of an ally. The second Gulf War though is to "walk into other people’s countries" and not to "preserve our way of life".

              Thats what Wheatcroft seems to think.


              Its wrong. We invaded Iraq for many reasons having nothing to do with democracy or human rights. To the extent it WAS about democracy and human rights, it was hardly comparable to Grenada - Iraq was not a garden variety authoritarian state, it was one of the last totalitarian states, it had commited acts of genocide, and it was in a center of a region where the lack of democracy WAS held by some to be connected to threats to OUR way of life.

              So I think the Baroness, whether she was correct to support the invasion or not, was certainly correct that there was no contradiction in her words.

              BTW, I opposed the Grenada invasion when it occurred. Where the f**k were you (politically) at the time?
              "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                But the USA finally did help the UK during the Falklands war.


                But initially Reagan was lukewarm about the whole thing, which did piss off Thatcher. Even when backing Britain, the US was not exactly full out in its support.
                He was lukewarm, and Thatcher was pissed. yup. But in the absence of the special relationship we probably wouldnt have supported the UK at all.

                I think perhaps we have here a strawman view of what the special relationship means, based on an innaccurate view of Blairs motivations in the second Gulf War.
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lord of the mark
                  Thats what Wheatcroft seems to think.
                  And he's right.

                  Its wrong. We invaded Iraq for many reasons having nothing to do with democracy or human rights. To the extent it WAS about democracy and human rights, it was hardly comparable to Grenada - Iraq was not a garden variety authoritarian state, it was one of the last totalitarian states, it had commited acts of genocide, and it was in a center of a region where the lack of democracy WAS held by some to be connected to threats to OUR way of life.

                  So I think the Baroness, whether she was correct to support the invasion or not, was certainly correct that there was no contradiction in her words.
                  Democracy and Human Rights were held up when it revealed that the previous excuses (WMDs) were bull****. So basically we did just walk into people's countries and used democracy and human rights as a catch all cover.

                  As for "committed acts of genocide", I'm glad to see that we've intervened in Rwanda and Myanmar... oh wait. Those places aren't as important strategically (ie, they don't have oil resources).

                  And the "some" who considered the lack of democracy i the MidEast to be threats to our way of life are incredibly naive... hell, democracy in the ME itself may be MORE of a threat to our way of life. As seen by the election of Hamas in Palestine and who the Iraqis have seen fit to elect to their bodies.

                  She's just trying to back the Bushie and has completely gone back on her word.
                  “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I would also suggest that US and UK positions in the Persian Gulf have been almost in lockstep since WW2. We overthrew Mossadegh to protect BRITISH oil interests, at long term cost to our position in the region. Britain through 1971 maintained its position in the Gulf for our mutual interest, including its protection of Kuwait in the 1960s. When Britain withdrew in 1971, we stepped in - but unwilling to make quite the same commitment, relied to some extent on Iran, in the "Nixon doctrine". While this fit well with an anti-Soviet strategy, this alienated KSA, and proved unfeasible when the Shah fell. Then the US tried for the next decade to balance between two hostile regimes in Iraq and Iran- an approach that at the time seemed to lead us regularly to the brink of war, and to immoral and damaging actions, though many look back on it with nostalgia now.

                    Then in 1990 we were forced back in, as was the UK. After 1991 we and the UK continued to cooperate in support of sanctions and in implementing the no-fly zones, despite disagreements from France and Germany.

                    2002-2003 was simply an extension of an over half century old policy of tight alliance between the US and UK in THIS PARTICULAR region.
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [QUOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

                      As for "committed acts of genocide", I'm glad to see that we've intervened in Rwanda



                      That we didnt get involved in Rwanda is, IMO, the shame of our national life in the 1990s, and IIRC Bill Clinton has said as much. It was in part due to folks like Newt Gingrich.


                      And the "some" who considered the lack of democracy i the MidEast to be threats to our way of life are incredibly naive


                      Thats a matter of legitimate debate. But the point is, Iraq wasnt a template for intervention in ANY regime we didnt like. Thats a strawman.


                      She's just trying to back the Bushie and has completely gone back on her word.



                      She made a promise? Rather she made a statement, which some are interpretating in contestable ways. That she did NOT apply that interpretation herself, when addressing the Second Gulf War, would seem to me prima facie evidence that the interpretation is wrong.
                      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Bill Clinton:

                        The international community, together with nations in Africa, must bear its share of responsibility for this tragedy, as well. We did not act quickly enough after the killing began. We should not have allowed the refugee camps to become safe havens for the killers. We did not immediately call these crimes by their rightful name: genocide. We cannot change the past. But we can and must do everything in our power to help you build a future without fear, and full of hope. ... We owe to all the people in the world our best efforts to organize ourselves so that we can maximize the chances of preventing these events. And where they cannot be prevented, we can move more quickly to minimize the horror.
                        "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          That we didnt get involved in Rwanda is, IMO, the shame of our national life in the 1990s, and IIRC Bill Clinton has said as much. It was in part due to folks like Newt Gingrich.


                          Regardless of who was "in part due", recall that we have an issue in Sudan today as well. And while calls have been made for action, nothing has really been done.

                          I bring it up because a regime committing genocide doesn't particular seem to matter in the invasion of countries... unless we can use it in the PR war.

                          Thats a matter of legitimate debate. But the point is, Iraq wasnt a template for intervention in ANY regime we didnt like. Thats a strawman.


                          Who says it was a template? It may have followed a template, though. Neoconservatives were for invading Iraq and deposing Saddam from the mid to late 90s. I don't think it was because he may had WMDs, either. I think it was because we didn't like the regime and it was in a strategic area.

                          That she did NOT apply that interpretation herself, when addressing the Second Gulf War, would seem to me prima facie evidence that the interpretation is wrong.


                          I'd point you in the direction of Mitt Romney if you think that politicians always hold fast to what they've said in the past.
                          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            [QUOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                            That we didnt get involved in Rwanda is, IMO, the shame of our national life in the 1990s, and IIRC Bill Clinton has said as much. It was in part due to folks like Newt Gingrich.


                            Regardless of who was "in part due"


                            F**k it. Wheatcroft is apparently a "tory libertarian" I dont know exactly HIS stand on Rwanda. I do think that when you fight to stop policy A, and succeed, and then fail to stop policy B, and you attack those who advocated BOTH policy A and policy B, for hypocrisy you are a jerk.

                            Its the Noam Chomsky attitude - "youd better not fight for Kosovo, cause you didnt intervene in Sudan" "Youd better nor intervene in Sudan, cause you didnt in ..."


                            , recall that we have an issue in Sudan today as well. And while calls have been made for action,


                            Yes, by me, repeatedly.

                            nothing has really been done.


                            Thats a long and complex discussion. Some serious steps have been done. More needs to be done.

                            I bring it up because a regime committing genocide doesn't particular seem to matter in the invasion of countries...


                            It certainly matters. Whether we can get solve it militarily, now, and if so, when and how we should do so, is a difficult question. Those of us for whom Darfur is a priority are struggling with it.


                            Thats a matter of legitimate debate. But the point is, Iraq wasnt a template for intervention in ANY regime we didnt like. Thats a strawman.


                            Who says it was a template? It may have followed a template, though. Neoconservatives were for invading Iraq and deposing Saddam from the mid to late 90s. I don't think it was because he may had WMDs, either. I think it was because we didn't like the regime and it was in a strategic area.


                            Why they disliked him, and what their proposed casus belli was, are two different things. They thought they had the right to get rid of him cause of the WMDs and the unresolved end of Gulf War 1. Again, not comparable to what Thatcher was talking about re Grenada.

                            BTW Grenada was NOT strategic, and Im prepared to discuss why, if you wish.

                            That she did NOT apply that interpretation herself, when addressing the Second Gulf War, would seem to me prima facie evidence that the interpretation is wrong.


                            I'd point you in the direction of Mitt Romney if you think that politicians always hold fast to what they've said in the past.


                            I dont deny politicians can reverse themselves. But in this case the only evidence for reversal is a statement that to me clearly doesnt apply to Iraq. AND that Thatchers later position implies doesnt apply to Iraq.
                            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              F**k it. Wheatcroft is apparently a "tory libertarian" I dont know exactly HIS stand on Rwanda. I do think that when you fight to stop policy A, and succeed, and then fail to stop policy B, and you attack those who advocated BOTH policy A and policy B, for hypocrisy you are a jerk.

                              Its the Noam Chomsky attitude - "youd better not fight for Kosovo, cause you didnt intervene in Sudan" "Youd better nor intervene in Sudan, cause you didnt in ..."


                              On the contrary. It's more like, you didn't intervene in Sudan or Rwanda, but you did in Kosovo and Iraq using genocide as an excuse. So why didn't you intervene in the first two? Perhaps genocide wasn't the real reason and is being used for PR purposes for the actual reason.

                              There is no good reason for the inconsistency other than, genocide really doesn't matter.

                              Why they disliked him, and what their proposed casus belli was, are two different things. They thought they had the right to get rid of him cause of the WMDs and the unresolved end of Gulf War 1. Again, not comparable to what Thatcher was talking about re Grenada.


                              The WMDs was a red herring, really. They doctored the evidence and they KNEW they were doctoring the evidence. The yellowcake in Africa was utter BS and the CIA said they told the President about that before he went up there and said it.

                              And what "unresolved end" to Gulf War 1? Saddam was kicked out of Kuwait. That was the goal. Then we put no fly zones in. Restarting a war at any time seems to me to be just going in because we don't like the regime rather than protecting any way of life.

                              AND that Thatchers later position implies doesnt apply to Iraq.


                              Because she doesn't want it, even though the plain language would indicate that it does... or unless she's one of those people that think that it endangered our way of life.
                              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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