the first homosexual

[Wiglaf]

Can someone please,historically speaking locate for me the origin of homosexuality.

[Proteus_MST]

Even fruit flies (Drosophila) are known to exhibit homosexual behavior,
and it was reported among many many species throughout the animal kingdom.
So one can assume that homosexuality developed shortly after multicellular animals with separate sexes appeared.

[Wiglaf]

Ew!

I don't think that's even right, sorry. Fruit flies might act gay because they don't know if they are doing a guy or a girl. I mean come on they are fruit flies, even their name sounds gay LOL.

They aren't very smart or aware of what's going on.

[Proteus_MST]

They don´t have to see wether their counterpart is male or female.
They just smell it (via pheromones)

There are also differences in he courtship behavior of males and females, a special song (via wing vibrations) he plays for the female before he mounts her (if she allows it)

So if a male fruit fly shows this behavior for another male fruit fly the second fruit fly could well see it, think "Eek, I don´t want a gay relationship, that is against nature and gods laws" and then fly away

Edited: Added some missing characters

[Zkribbler]

Do you count earthworms? They have both sets of genitalia. So while one earthworm is impregnating another earthwarm, that second earthworm is returning the favor.

[Wiglaf]

so who was the first gay man? also I stand by my statement that fruit flies are very dumb.

[Starchild]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
also I stand by my statement that fruit flies are very dumb.

Now now, don't insult your betters.

[Barnabas]

It is interesting to think of how the life of a homosexual would have been when humans were all hunter gatherers and there were no cities or farmers

[Wiglaf]

I think it is sad that gay people can never have kids

[Barnabas]

They can, with people of the opposite sex.

[Wiglaf]

that is not the same at all.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Barnabas
It is interesting to think of how the life of a homosexual would have been when humans were all hunter gatherers and there were no cities or farmers

I have thought about that.

And as a disclaimer, this is a time before morality.

I really can't see how homosexuality matters. A small percentage of the population of a tribe being homo is not harmful to reproductive success of the genes within the tribe, it may even be positive.

If the largest most macho male is going to get more females, then some males have to go without. Being a homo male is a benefit in this case, in particular the homo males don't need to get themselves beat up fighting the macho male (we're going to assume that macho male doesn't give a **** about guy-on-guy, because it doesn't effect his personal reproductive success). (it would be interesting to learn if homosexuality is less common in truly monogamous species)

As for female homos, large males have the means to impregnate small females regardless of consent (there's a word for this, but it was invented in more modern times), meaning the homo female ends up fulfilling her reproductive obligations (from an evolutionary perspective and the perspective of macho male) regardless of sexual orientation. Before the invention of the R word, it was probably just a case of "**** happens", tactless, but that's as it is in the animal kingdom and frankly, the genes don't care how they get reproduced.
(it would be interesting to learn if homosexuality is less common in species where females are stronger than males)

There may be a benefit to being a homo female, in general avoiding the wrath of the macho male. A hetro female may "fickly" decide to love a male other than the macho male, which then creates much strife in the tribe. A homo female probably wont cause that strife because macho male isn't going to care about girl-on-girl, this does not impact his reproductive success.

The way I see it, in the time before man-made morality, homosexuality probably reduced friction in a tribal group and thus on the whole was more beneficial than harmful, at least at relatively low percentages (if the percentage is so high, that through random chance, a tribe can end up with 100% homo males, then obviously that trait gets selected against very strongly indeed).

And there's nothing at all "innately" repulsive about homosexuality, animals are completely shameless about it and other animals around them act like it's completely normal. I've seen stags (deer) be homo, and the other stags don't care.

Finally, on bisexuality. I think this is as simple as "playsex" useful in the same was as playfighting (ie practise for the real thing), in some cases there may be an overabundance of female or males at certain times, for example young males often get evicted from packs/herds and forced to live in bachelor packs/herds (which also leaves an overabundance of young females in the original herd). I don't have a huge amount of data, but bisexuality in dogs (*****es) seems completely typical - horny dogs (of both genders), lacking available mates of the other gender, bang anything which is available (of course this wont be particularly noticeable in neutered pets).
I suspect that humans are actually typically bisexual, it just gets suppressed by societal expectations, given opposite expectations (ie ancient Greek) it would be much more common.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Re: the first homosexual

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Can someone please,historically speaking locate for me the origin of homosexuality.

Given that it's been recorded in all the most intelligent mammals, and particularly in our closer evolutionary relatives (such as bonobos), I think it's safe to assume that homo has been around as long as Homo has.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Blake
If the largest most macho male is going to get more females, then some males have to go without. Being a homo male is a benefit in this case, in particular the homo males don't need to get themselves beat up fighting the macho male.

But what happens to your theory if the big macho male is gay while all the heteros are lotering around at home, to be close to the females, and spending their time making cave paintings in all the pretty colours of the rainbow!

[LordShiva]

A lot of hetero animals use homosexual sex to maintain social hierarchies. Dominant male bonobo apes, buffalo, etc., ceremonially mount lower-status males to reinforce their dominance.