My world view has drastically changed - I no longer root for the bull

[Pekka]

Sloww, all of the above? That's ridiculous. You don't go calling encyclopedia stupid because it has facts in it. It's just facts, I don't know how that makes me an idiot though.

Also there's a difference when I say bullfighting is manly and your claim of my focused view on what manliness is. There's a distinct difference.

[LordShiva]

Bullfighting

[Thorgal]

Originally posted by Barnabas
Winston, are you being serious?
You think the international community should tell Spain to stop that?
It would be unrespectful...

Plenty of spaniards dont like bull fighting, Also, in the communities with some degree of separatist feelings in Spain, they are very against bullfighting

No quite right. In the most separatist one, the Basque country, bullfighting and all sorts of tauromaquia are very popular. Even the guy who was the "politic leader of ETA" along years, was a bullfighter when young.

[Thorgal]

Originally posted by SlowwHand


"Fighting" an animal that has been stabbed half to death before the matador makes his brave and grand entrance?
How is not wimpy is the question.

Mmmm...For the sake of information, the bullfighter fights the bull BEFORE picador and banderillas too.

Banderillas and pica while spectacular do not great damage to the bull, picador does more damage. All that blood is caused by the picador. But neither banderillas nor picador are mortal for the bull (most indulted bulls recover easily of such wounds excepting for infections). It is the sword that kills it.

In any case after the picador the bull is alive and well and full capable of killing anybody in front iof him. It is only a bit more "slow" so the bullfighter is able to do the main and most dangerous "chapter" of bullfighting getting much closer to the bull. It is in this final chapter when most bullfighters have been gored and killed.

[Barnabas]

Well, Thorgal, I said that because the last months a catalan politician Pilar Raola, I think thats the name, has been saying pretty much that on argentine tv

[Thorgal]

Pilar Rahola... She spends much more time in TV shows than in politics.

While it is true that bullfighting has not much tradition in Galicia and to a lesser degreee in Cataluña, it has a huge tradion in the Basque Country and surroundings (you know San Fermin and such).

[SlowwHand]

Mmmm...For the sake of information, the bullfighter fights the bull BEFORE picador and banderillas too.

In fairness, I'll note I've only witnessed Mexican bullfighting. That's the only reason I don't say you're full of crap.
IF you're citing Mexico, then you are certainly full of crap.

[Pekka]

No Sloww, you're being full of crap. You're calling people idiots and full of crap and you don't even have your facts straight. Like I said earlier, hating the facts doesn't change anything, I'm not blaming dictionary for the things it says. It is what it is, it's facts.

You can go ahead and judge everyone, but don't forget, we had the facts and you didn't, so I guess the issue of who is full of crap here is debatable.

[Thorgal]

In fairness, I'll note I've only witnessed Mexican bullfighting. That's the only reason I don't say you're full of crap.
IF you're citing Mexico, then you are certainly full of crap.

AFAIK Mexican bullfighting is similar to Spanish bullfighting. So who knows what have you seen indeed.

In any case here you have a couple of videos about some "toreo con capa" which is the first chapter of Bullfighting, done before the bull is "stabbed half to death", in order to prove that i am not so full of crap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfDFlJy_Bgs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVoLcWM9nUQ

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Pekka
Yes. Bull's death is acceptable.

Did you toture small animals when you were a child?

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Pekka
No Sloww, you're being full of crap. You're calling people idiots and full of crap and you don't even have your facts straight. Like I said earlier, hating the facts doesn't change anything, I'm not blaming dictionary for the things it says. It is what it is, it's facts.

You can go ahead and judge everyone, but don't forget, we had the facts and you didn't, so I guess the issue of who is full of crap here is debatable.

Pekka, I know what I've seen. As far as I can read, anyone else is theory and personal opinion.
Doesn't count for a lot.

[Thorgal]

Well... another three videos with complete bullfightings where you can see all the phases or chapters (tercios): first phase with the pink cape (toreo con capa) and then picador, second one banderillas, third one with the smaller red cape (toreo con muleta) and then dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1MTlmQzq8s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYNKWnY7km4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJGfHJ9PPlI

Curiously in these three videos in youtube the bull is indulted due to excepcional performance of the bull and the matador. This is rather uncommon, specially in Spain.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Pekka
Yes. Bull's death is acceptable.

But shouldn´t you be very pro gladiator fights between humans to (probable) death?

In bullfighting you stll have a very good chance for survival. In gladiator fights in the Arena however you know that probably either you or yur opponent don´t survive the fight.
It takes more manliness for a gladiator to know this and nevertheless make the decision to go out and fight.

In gladiator fights you also have both opponents making the conscious decision to do the fight (assuming that unlike during the roman era, all of the gladiators do it voluntarily [or more exactly because they´re paid well for it ]) whereas in bullfighting only the Torero might decie that he doesn´t feel well enough for the battle, whereas the bull is forced to fight no matter if he wants or not.

So why not being pro gladiator fights with melee weapons (till one of both gladiators is either dead, unconscious or gives up)?
It cannot get much manllier than this

[Pekka]

Sloww, ok, that's fair. I'm not a bullfighting expert either. And I'm sure that there are lots of these slow deaths. They are cruel, I've never thought them otherwise except cruel. The ones where the matador misses the first shot but still gets the bull with the sword, that's just bad. It means the matador did not succeed and the performance isn't good, but it also means the bull suffers more.

Maybe the show you saw with the Mexicans was just what it can sometimes be, it can be cruel, extra cruel. Slow ones are supposedly bad. I'm of course talking about the ideal situation where the bull dies from the first strike, clean shot. Should the bull be aggressive also, so there's no need for those other clowns stabbing the bull. Naturally it doesn't always go like the ideal situation would be. If it becomes slow, the bull doesn't fight, the matador misses once or more, I would consider that a torture of the bull. But then again, justice might prevail and the bull gets to scorn the guy good. And just for the record, if there was a bullfight going on, I'd most likely opt to do something else than go watch it.

Kid, no. But if I considered the death of the bull unacceptable, I would be feelign very sorry for eating that lamb dinner I had today. Of course there are limits even with the deaths of animals, the levels of how bad it is. I know many animals produced for eating have a bad life and get a bad death. In that regard, I don't think bullfights are so bad. It depends of course how many bulls are wasted, but I don't think they have bullfights every night. Also, I would be against bullfights if they brought it here. It's not part of our history or culture, so there is no context. And then it would be just killing a bull and drinking a beer while watching it and I don't think that's cool.

Proteus, no, that doesn't mean I'd be for gladiator stuff. Of course gladiators would have more balls, because odds for survival are significantly smaller. And yes, I do realize that the bull doesn't get to choose whereas the gladiator would, I mean supposing we don't use slaves in them.

But no, I don't think that kind of spectacle is accepted in modern society. I don't thinkin killing humans for entertainment is the thing to do. You could say well, so you think it's OK to kill bulls for entertainment then? No, I'm saying that the death of the bull is acceptable, as long as they don't waste 100 bulls every night.

If it was up to me, I'd change the rules. I'd put the matador there alone with the sword. And if the bull wins, the bull gets to live and never fight again. Free food and stuff, and some big grounds for them to run and stuff.

[East Street Trader]

The first phase of the fight is the matador facing the bull when it is fresh and uninjured.

After a number of passes the matador withdraws and the picador weakens the bull's neck muscle in the way Sloww's picture illustrates. Then banderilleros further weaken the neck muscle by throwing darts into it.

Now the matador returns. He provokes a series of charges so that he can show off his cape work. He must induce the bull to pass as close to his body as he can.

Now comes the climax of the fight. The matador must dominate the bull so as to induce it to stand still, front legs square on and with its head hanging down. The matador now approaches the bull from the front and leans in over the horns to drive his sword down through the weakened muscle, between the bull's shoulder blades and into its heart.

If well done the bull drops as if pole axed.

Typically it takes the matador several attempts. He is aiming at a target only a couple of inches in diameter and, at the moment the coup de grace is administered, all the bull has to do to gore the matador is to lift its head.

A cocky matador confident in his dominance of the bull proceeds with a degree of deliberation. Mostly they run in hurriedly.

The weakening of the neck muscle by the picadors and banderilleros is necessary because otherwise the sword would not penetrate easily enough.

You can find a detailed description in Hemingway's Death in the Afternoon. Which is a good read generally.