Spanish translation

[lord of the mark]

when my mother studied Spanish in school, in the 1940s, the NYC public schools taught Castillian Spanish. When I was in school in the 1970's, my friends who took Spanish said they were taught Argentinian Spanish. When I took an adult ed class in Spanish in Jacksonville Florida in the 1980s, I learned Cuban Spanish, cause the instructor was from Cuba. I dont even know the differences, but I liked to say I learned the dialect of middle class Havana of the 1950s Not that I learned all that much.

[Arrian]

In the 1990s, my highschool spanish class was taught Castillian Spanish.

-Arrian

[Barnabas]

Castillian and Spanish mean the same thing


Imagine that the english langauge could also be called british

In that case, castillian would be like english, and british like spanish


Castillian spanish I bet means spanish as spoken in Castile

Arrian, were you taught to pronounce "z" and "c" before an "e" or an "i" (like in celos or cinco) as th in think?

And ll as the lli in million?

In that case you were taught to speak as in castile, it is a difference of pronounciation, not of grammar.

In latin america "z" and "c" in front of "e" and "i" are all pronounced like "s"


The only grammar difference between Spain and most of latin america is in Spain they use vosotros

Spanish has 2 words for second person singular Tu*, which is for people you know well, family, coworkers, people of the same hierarchy ,friends etc
And usted, which is more polite

Spanish also has 2 works for second person plural, vosotros and ustedes, the difference is the same as between tu and usted, in spain they use both, but in latin america they only use ustedes.


*I did not put "vos", because it is only used by a minority of latin americans, around 20% of spanish speakers

[LordShiva]

Is "Ibiza" pronounced "Ibitha" or "Ibitsa?"

[Thorgal]

Ibitha. In all Spain "z" is always pronounced -th-, excepting Canary Islands and to a lesser degree at some places in western Andalusia, as Seville.

[Barnabas]

Latin America was colonized mainly from Seville and Cadiz, that is why we dont pronounce the "th" sound

[Arrian]

Castillian and Spanish mean the same thing

Well, sure, but the way it was meant was to signify that it was "high" spanish... like someone might say "The Queen's English" as opposed to "American English."

Arrian, were you taught to pronounce "z" and "c" before an "e" or an "i" (like in celos or cinco) as th in think?

I have a vague memory of that... but then, if you had simply asked me how to pronounce cinco, I'd say "sin-ko." But of course, I wasn't a very good student when it came to languages and I've forgotten most of what little I did learn.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Barnabas
Castillian and Spanish mean the same thing


Imagine that the english langauge could also be called british

In that case, castillian would be like english, and british like spanish

AFAIK no one says they speak the Argentinian dialect of Castilian.

For whatever historic reasons, the relationships just arent the same. While English as a nationality is a subset of British, British as a language is a subset of english. Probably because "british" as a language name was associated with welsh/breton (Brythonic) celtic. So the language of Shakespeare continued to be called English after the act of Union. So we speak of American English, and British English, but not of "American British".

OTOH Spanish as a language, at least by 1500, referred to Castilian (AFAIK) and settlers in the new world called themselves Spanish (AFAIK) even if they were Aragonese.

Does anyone where you live refer to the language they speak as Castilian?

Of course in terms of dialects, IIUC, most latin american dialects are close to andalusian, which was of course part of Castille, so really we should be saying "Madrid dialect" or something like that for the official dialect of Spain. Im not sure if using the term "castilian" for Madrid dialect is just a USA thing, or not.

[Barnabas]

Speaking the argentine dialect of castilian does not sound rare to my ears (Dialecto argentino del castellano)

And Andalusia belonged to the kingdom of Castile, but it is not Castile

Yes, settlers refered themselves as spaniards, because spaniard is the common nationality, referring themselves as castillians would have been wrong, because most settlers were andalusians, basques or from extremadura, not from Castile (Madrid, Burgos, Toledo, Valladolid etc)


Spanish and Castilian are synonyms, in some countries most people say "castellano" like Argentina or Peru, and in some countries like Mexico people say "español" using both forms is common too

Only in Spain the difference has political connotations, because there, some people prefer to call it castellano, because they consider Catalan or Galician or Basque to be "spanish" languages too. So castilian would be just another spanish language.


Wiki has an article about this issue, in english

"Spaniards tend to call the language español (Spanish) when contrasting it to languages of other states, such as in a list with French (francés), Chinese (chino), etc. Castellano (Castilian) by contrast, is more often used when contrasting the language with other regional languages of Spain: Aragonese, Asturian, Basque, Catalan, Galician, and so on. In this manner, the Spanish Constitution of 1978 uses the term castellano to define the official language of the whole State, opposed to las demás lenguas españolas (lit. the other Spanish languages). Article III reads as follows:

El castellano es la lengua española oficial del Estado. (...) Las demás lenguas españolas serán también oficiales en las respectivas Comunidades Autónomas...

Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State (...) The other Spanish languages shall also be official in their respective Autonomous Communities...
"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_given_to_the_Spanish_language

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Barnabas
Speaking the argentine dialect of castilian does not sound rare to my ears (Dialecto argentino del castellano)

And Andalusia belonged to the kingdom of Castile, but it is not Castile

Yes, settlers refered themselves as spaniards, because spaniard is the common nationality, referring themselves as castillians would have been wrong, because most settlers were andalusians, basques or from extremadura, not from Castile (Madrid, Burgos, Toledo, Valladolid etc)


Spanish and Castilian are synonyms, in some countries most people say "castellano" like Argentina or Peru, and in some countries like Mexico people say "español" using both forms is common too

Only in Spain the difference has political connotations, because there, some people prefer to call it castellano, because they consider Catalan or Galician or Basque to be "spanish" languages too. So castilian would be just another spanish language.


Wiki has an article about this issue, in english

"Spaniards tend to call the language español (Spanish) when contrasting it to languages of other states, such as in a list with French (francés), Chinese (chino), etc. Castellano (Castilian) by contrast, is more often used when contrasting the language with other regional languages of Spain: Aragonese, Asturian, Basque, Catalan, Galician, and so on. In this manner, the Spanish Constitution of 1978 uses the term castellano to define the official language of the whole State, opposed to las demás lenguas españolas (lit. the other Spanish languages). Article III reads as follows:

El castellano es la lengua española oficial del Estado. (...) Las demás lenguas españolas serán también oficiales en las respectivas Comunidades Autónomas...

Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State (...) The other Spanish languages shall also be official in their respective Autonomous Communities...
"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_g...anish_language

Ok, thanks, I learned something.

Im guessing the US usage is probably influenced by the Mexican usage then.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Barnabas
"Yes, settlers refered themselves as spaniards, because spaniard is the common nationality, referring themselves as castillians would have been wrong, because most settlers were andalusians, basques or from extremadura, not from Castile (Madrid, Burgos, Toledo, Valladolid etc) "

However again, this was not parallel to usage here wrt British/english.

Prior to the act of Union, these were always called "english colonies" and generally after the act of union as well. by the mid 18th century people were using the term British North America, and some English descended north americans were calling themselves "british" but most called themselves English, and wanted "the rights of Englishmen". The only exceptions would have been those of Scottish descent, AFAIK.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Thorgal
Ibitha. In all Spain "z" is always pronounced -th-, excepting Canary Islands and to a lesser degree at some places in western Andalusia, as Seville.

I'd argue for "Ibisa" or "Ibitsa". On the Baleares, they speak a form of Catalan and don't have the "th" sound.
For the same reason it's "Barselona" rather than "Barthelona".

[Thorgal]

Nope, it is as saying that it is England rather than Inglaterra. It is pronounced "Barselona" when it is said in Catalan but "Barthelona" when it is said in Spanish.

[The Vagabond]

Thanks for having enlightened me, guys. Especially, Barnabas

[The Vagabond]

Yet there appears to be an inconsistency. Look at the original quote from LordShiva:

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¡Muchas gracias!

So it looks like they use "tu". Yet the verb forms are for "vos". [For the future tense, the verb forms for "tu" and "vos" apparently coincide.]

Also, they write "completes", which is the subjunctive for "tu". For "vos" it should have been "completés" (with an accent).

Besides, "lee" (tu)->"leé" (vos).