Bush Compares Iraq to Vietnam...Finally

[Patroklos]

Nonsense. The main reason given at the time was the actual threat of WMD, which weren't found later. Most of your points were given later to provide additional justification because that main point (WMD) turned out to be a complete failure.

You have that backwards. Most of the reasons Cybershy listed existed in the 90's, the WMD thing came out very late in the game.

[BeBMan]

Yet it was given as the primary reason for the attack, otherwise I don't see why the US wouldn't have gone after Saddam already, and why there was so much fuss about WMD inspections etc.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I think the point is over emphasized, but it has always been a long term goal to make Iraq a stable, democratic buffer state in the area so that we could tone down our direct presence. If (big if) Iraq stabilized where would we need to keep any significant troop concentration in the Gulf? The Navy would stick around sure, but they have no footprint except for Bahrain, which we might leave behind as well.

But the toning down of our direct presence was more of a cost issue than a "let's pacify OBL" issue. In fact, the later would be incredibly distasteful... especially since it wouldn't pacify him at all.

[q=Cybershy]You want to deny that OBL caused 9/11 b/c of the USA troops in SA?[/q]

Do you actually think that if US troops were removed from SA in 2000, OBL would have just stopped and not gone after the US? Really?

I'll not participate in your "attack the poster, not his opinon" way of debating

"your opinion to be bat**** crazy" is now not attacking the opinion, but rather the poster? That's a new one.

[Arrian]

Patroklos, do you have some sort of super-secret decoder device for propertly understanding Bush that the rest of us lack?

The man is an idiot. He doesn't understand History. He doesn't understand the present. And he damn sure doesn't know what he's doing for the future.

-Arrian

[Robert]

Originally posted by BeBro
Yet it was given as the primary reason for the attack, otherwise I don't see why the US wouldn't have gone after Saddam already, and why there was so much fuss about WMD inspections etc.

The WMD fuss was to convince Europe and Russia.
Not to mention that it was very important to Tony Blair as well.

It's always been regime change to the USA.
GWB made the mistake to let him drift away from his real course by trying to convince the world about the WMD.

[Patroklos]

WMDs were supposed to get the rest of the world onboard, but it is NOT the reason for the US to go (the administration at least). How could it be when most of you maintain Bush planed on invading from the moment of his election?

Most people I knew at the time, decidedly military types to be sure, felt perfectly justified to go in years before we actually did for a variety of reasons. Hell, I wanted to go to Baghdad the first go around (as a CNN addicted 10 year old).

[Robert]

Do you actually think that if US troops were removed from SA in 2000, OBL would have just stopped and not gone after the US? Really?

Yes, back in 2000 that would have let him focus back on his battle against the corrupted regimes in the muslim countries.
That's what Al Qaida was all about to begin with. To battle the muslim dictators who joined forces with the great satan.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by CyberShy


The WMD fuss was to convince Europe and Russia.
Not to mention that it was very important to Tony Blair as well.

It's always been regime change to the USA.
GWB made the mistake to let him drift away from his real course by trying to convince the world about the WMD.

Ah, so you now know the "real course" better than GWB himself?

Bush 2003, Ultimatum to Iraq:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,916543,00.html

[Patroklos]

But the toning down of our direct presence was more of a cost issue than a "let's pacify OBL" issue. In fact, the later would be incredibly distasteful... especially since it wouldn't pacify him at all.

Agreed not to pacify OBL directly, but nobody including Bush denies that our presence there creates hatred, no matter how justified you think that presence is.

Patroklos, do you have some sort of super-secret decoder device for propertly understanding Bush that the rest of us lack?

I listen to what he actually says vice what I want to hear, and I use context. How does lessons from Vietnam translate to just like Vietnam?

[Arrian]

Interesting thread, Boshko. Imran and I both went with "Afganistan." The Lebanon option was more accurate.

Predicting the exact outcome of something as complex as this is always gonna be a crapshoot. Much simpler was the basic question of yes/no. Is this a good idea?

And to that I believe I always answered no (albeit my no was mostly due to my belief that our government is too incompetant and ignorant about furriners to pull a project like this off, coupled with the US public not really being up for spending the time, money and effort required, myself included). I could, if the pro-war apologists want, dig up posts that prove it. But that's pointless.

-Arrian

[Robert]

Originally posted by BeBro


Ah, so you now know the "real course" better than GWB himself?

Bush 2003, Ultimatum to Iraq:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,916543,00.html

You think that you can learn the real courses from the window dressing?
But indeed, later on the WMD became the key thing around everything resolved. Not b/c of GWB but b/c of Europe and Russia.

[Arrian]

I listen to what he actually says vice what I want to hear, and I use context. How does lessons from Vietnam translate to just like Vietnam?

And you think the man accurately characterized those "lessons from Vietnam?" Seriously?

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

I am reacting soley to the "Just like Vietnam," and "OMFG ANOTHER VIETNAM WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE," crowd.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Most people I knew at the time, decidedly military types to be sure, felt perfectly justified to go in years before we actually did for a variety of reasons. Hell, I wanted to go to Baghdad the first go around (as a CNN addicted 10 year old).

Military lifers want to go to war. Imagine that. :shock:

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by CyberShy


You think that you can learn the real courses from the window dressing?

First, if you now say that what Bush said was not about "real courses" for war - how can you disagree with my earlier "a war that was based on everything else but the truth"? If he gives a certain justification in public but wants the war because of something else, then my description seems not to far out, hm?

Second, I'd like to know what superior sources you're using to find out about those "real courses" if we have to take any official statements by the US as lies anyway (which I wouldn't say they are in all cases, but maybe I'm just too naive).