Another Helicopter Crashed in Iraq

[Shrapnel12]

This one killed 20 soldiers. Once again, the military says it was a mechanical failure. Do you believe this? Either these helicopters are junk and they need to keep our soldiers off of them, or they're lying ****** and the helicopters are being shot down. Which do you think it is? Also, if they are lying, why? Soldiers die every day in combat so what motivates the military to lie about helicopters shot in combat?

[rah]

sand is not a helicopter's friend so I think it is just mechanical failure. Maybe poor maint.

[Cort Haus]

This was a Blackhawk, I gather. I know nothing about helicopters, but there is precedent from a previous conflict of Apaches falling out of the sky on training exercises, nowhere near the battlefield. ISTR they were withdrawn completely from the theatre because of unreliablilty.

[Patroklos]

Where did you get 20, I read 14.

In any case, take flying hours logged, compare to number of deaths, compare to other modes of transport and embrase reality.

People die in cars every day, do we take them off the road?

[Kontiki]

It most likely was mechanical failure (given the number of helicopter flights made, it's bound to happen every now and again), but the reason why the military would want to lie about helos being shot down is probably because they don't want to make them seem vulnerable. The public expects there to be some deaths in ground combat and roadside bombs, but if it seems like they can shoot down your helicopters, it's a more frightening proposition.

[Patroklos]

Like any community of a 2 odd million people, these things happen. The number of deaths from car wrecks (especially motorcycles), suicides, plane/helicopter crashes, various medical things, machinery malfunction etc. far outpace combat deaths.

I would like to see a statistic on hours flown by helos in Iraq, I am sure it is a quite a large number.

[Shrapnel12]

On google, there was an article that reported 20, but later another article said 14. This is not the first time I've found articles on google with conflicting reports.

I would really like to see the statistics on helicopter flights in Iraq vs crashes. I would like to compare them to the number of commercial flights vs accidents. Perhaps that would put it in perspective and not seem so much, but I'm concerned that at the very least, the military has to do something about safety with helicopter flights. Yes, sand is bad for our equipment, but we've known this for a while, so something should be done if it hasn't already.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Like any community of a 2 odd million people, these things happen. The number of deaths from car wrecks (especially motorcycles), suicides, plane/helicopter crashes, various medical things, machinery malfunction etc. far outpace combat deaths.

I would like to see a statistic on hours flown by helos in Iraq, I am sure it is a quite a large number.

Would you say the same if a Navy ship sunk?

[Pekka]

CO, come on, do you know how many people die because of booze and cigarettes EVERY DAY?

[Patroklos]

Would you say the same if a Navy ship sunk?

Is it normal for navy ships to sink? No.

Is it normal for helicopters to occasionally crash? Yes.

Is there really and direct comparison? No.

[Shrapnel12]

Just because something is normal, is not a reason to accept it.

[Chemical Ollie]

Cars chrash because idiots drive them. But I hardly think you assign idiots to drive military helicopters. So the reason they chrash must be something else. Something you can probably fix.

[Patroklos]

Cars chrash because idiots drive them. But I hardly think you assign idiots to drive military helicopters. So the reason they chrash must be something else. Something you can probably fix.

And army helicopters are not cars, they are large extremely complex mechines using cutting edge technology under the most rigorous pressures and circumstances.

And being an aircraft, when they break down they tend fall back to earth instead of glide slowely to the side of the road like a car.

We may find pilot error, or shoddy maintenance, or enviromental factors caused this. But the fact is this one crash does not and should not cause people to question use of helicopters wholesale, period.

[Pekka]

yeah, this sand business is quite rough. I remember watching a program about this, discovery or something. It was choppers and how they have to do maintanaince because the sand gets everywhere, so you have to do it more often.

It was crazy. THey don't get many hours in the air before they have to do this bigger maintanaince, it's like ALL the freaking time. They have to take it apart very much, but that's just becuase sand gets everywhere.

So yeah, it's difficult to say, I can't remember all the spesifics, but I can remember being quite "wow" about the problem with choppers and sand. I can see this happening, more than once as well, but it's just one of those things you have to be careful about, it's just a lot of work but there's no way around it.

[Pekka]

Also, I understand sometimes you have to give a pretty picture. So you'd like to discredit the opponent if you can. Why give them credit, it gives them power via morale problems in home.

But anyway, you never know but the sand is a huge problem with choppers, it's a bigger problem than an amateur like me would imagine, it's quite amazing. Like how many hours of flying you get with say old F18s, then the amount of work that goes into the maintanaince where they have to take that sucker into parts and stuff.. not all the way but lots of it. So... the problem with even kind of new choppers and sand, it's a lot worse, a lot.

This used to be a problem with all kinds of transportation methods. That's one of the reasons why FFL was called in and appreciated when the first Gulf War took place. They have all that sand experience as a western army, like the real deal stuff so you can relate adn they can relate, so you get the picture.

So anyway, they got their stuff made for this sand business. They have all that experience, they have units placed in sand places in Africa. Djibouti and stuff like that, and they actively patrol and engage. So they're the top experts when it comes to sand, but they don't use a lot of choppers there for obvious reasons, but can you see Iraq without choppers? I can't see Iraq without choppers.

Plus sometimes you just have to adjust to the situation. So one gets news like a chopper was ambushed. Well, it's not a big surprise that it happens every now and then. It isnt' exactly THAT difficult to take a chopper down if you have the equipment for it and the experience to know how to do it. So if that airspace is reasonbly quiet compared to other conflicts, well, sometimes these babies get taken down. Russia lost LOTS of choppers in Afghanistan, over 300, and the mujahediins used what? Stingers? And Russian choppers weren't exactly crap either. But that's what happens with these things.

I wouldn't say it's incompetence or whatever necessarily. What ever the reason for that chopper to crash was, it happens and it's not very simple to just say well someone ****ed up.

But I wouldn't say that this kind of **** happens in my home town either. People die here as well, but for other reasons.