democratic Hamas

[lord of the mark]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070813/...nians_violence;_ylt=An5ZD9r2747fNXWVk8eQtYRvaA8F

Hamas militiamen beat Gaza protesters By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer
34 minutes ago

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - [b[Hamas militiamen beat protesters with clubs and rifle butts to try to stop a demonstration by political opponents in the Gaza Strip on Monday, but hundreds chanting "We want freedom" defied the ban. [/b]

Hamas routed forces loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah movement in five days of savage fighting in Gaza in June. The Islamic militant group has tolerated no dissent since taking over the coastal strip.

After Fatah and other allied groups announced plans to stage a rally Monday, Hamas banned "all demonstrations and public gatherings" that did not have special permission.

Buses arriving at the demonstration site in a main square were halted by Hamas guards who beat protesters, driving them away and confiscating Fatah flags.

Nevertheless, about 300 protesters got past the militia cordon and demonstrated for about 20 minutes, shouting "We want to raise our voice," before dispersing.

Hamas men arrested several demonstrators and confiscated equipment from news photographers and cameramen seeking to cover the arrests, including an Associated Press camera.

The Palestinian journalists' union called on members to observe a three-day boycott of any events organized by the Hamas force to protest the treatment of the media.

Saleh Nasser, of the small, leftist, Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine was at the protest and condemned Hamas' response.

"Treating people in this way when they came to raise their voice in a peaceful demonstration is something that is condemned, rejected and cannot be accepted," he said. "We are astonished by the decision to ban demonstrations."

Following the protest, Hamas squads raided Gaza offices of media organizations seeking material from the rally, eyewitnesses said. Staff at Gulf-based satellite broadcaster Al-Arabiyya said the Hamas men seized a camera, videotape and tripod from their premises.

The June infighting in Gaza, which killed about 100 people, deepened the already bitter political rivalry between Hamas and Fatah.

Following the Hamas takeover of Gaza, Abbas expelled Hamas from the Palestinian coalition government and formed a West Bank-based administration of moderates in its place.

Undeterred, deposed Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh pledged to impose law and order on the formerly anarchic Gaza Strip. But his heavily armed police, known as the Executive Force, is gaining a reputation for being heavy-handed at best, particularly when dealing with Fatah supporters.

In other developments, Israeli troops arrested four Palestinians who slipped into Israel from Gaza through a border fence on Monday, the army said. The infiltrators were carrying one grenade and a knife, but they did not try to use them when the soldiers detained them, the army said.

It was not immediately clear why the Palestinians sneaked into Israel, the army said. Shooting incidents are common along the tense Gaza-Israel border, but there have been few cases of Palestinians successfully crossing the heavily guarded fence and entering Israel.

[Zkribbler]

Wm. F. Buckley Jr. used to describe democracy in Africa as:

One Man. One Vote. One Time.

[Pekka]

Well, you've got to give it to the people who went protesting. There are certain risks involved, you never really know if you're coming back I guess.

So in that regard, I admire the bravery of these people. I mean just showing up, they've already done much more than ordinary citizens in democracies and yet they still don't get the voice.

[Victor Galis]

And yet, they are/were in the minority. Obviously Hamas is in the wrong cracking down, but having protests because you lost the election isn't exactly democratic.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Wm. F. Buckley Jr. used to describe democracy in Africa as:

I believe the Palestinians are capable of democracy. Even Hamas may be, someday. But to invoke an obligation to negotiate with them,now, on democratic grounds, well thats something else.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
And yet, they are/were in the minority. Obviously Hamas is in the wrong cracking down, but having protests because you lost the election isn't exactly democratic.

For a losing party to protest policies it opposes, is the very essence of democracy.

Democracy is more than elections.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
For a losing party to protest policies it opposes, is the very essence of democracy.

Democracy is more than elections.

What policies are those? They seem to be generally unhappy that they lost.

[dannubis]

Well, what elections did they loose in Gaza? Fatah got kicked out loosing quite a few followers in the process.

Hamas has no right to forbid protest marches. Besides, if they won the election they should have nothing to fear, right?

[Zevico]

I believe the Palestinians are capable of democracy. Even Hamas may be, someday. But to invoke an obligation to negotiate with them,now, on democratic grounds, well thats something else.

Let's examine the present situation.
Both Hamas and Fatah are little more than armed gangs with spokesmen. They're involved in drug trafficking, the stolen goods trade and who knows what else.
Fatah has no ideology except 'destroy Israel'. In that respect capitalists, liberals, or fundamentalist Muslims are all equally welcome into the united and cohesive political unit that is Fatah.
Neither party has an interest in maintaining a democratic system of government. Both want absolute control and desire the subjugation and repression of the other.
Fatah is renowned for its corruption. Hamas soon will be, I'm sure, given their status as an armed gang with a social work wing.

Where exactly is this capability you speak of, lotm?

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Zevico

{Let's examine the present situation.
Both Hamas and Fatah are little more than armed gangs with spokesmen. They're involved in drug trafficking, the stolen goods trade and who knows what else.

Charecterizing Fatah as an organization is difficult, as it has many affiliates some recent, like Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. It is certainly known for thuggishness and corruption, the legacy of Yasir Arafat above all. But Arafat is dead, and Abbas seems to see the need for change, and has appointed an independent PM.

Fatah has no ideology except 'destroy Israel'.

At least officially, they have dropped that. I will admit that that may well have been Arafats goal anyway. But Arafat is dead, and that does not seem to be the working basis of Fatah today.

In that respect capitalists, liberals, or fundamentalist Muslims are all equally welcome into the united and cohesive political unit that is Fatah.

In fact the fundamentalists supported Hamas and PIJ, AFAIK.

Neither party has an interest in maintaining a democratic system of government. Both want absolute control and desire the subjugation and repression of the other.

Fatah has SOME interest in maintaining a democracy at this point, for international legitimacy against Hamas, for internal legitimacy on the West Bank, and to undermine Hamas in Gaza. Hamas' oppressive acts in Gaza are weakening their political appeal outside Gaza.

Does Fatah want to repress Hamas? Sure. Given that Hamas continues to advocate terror, is the kind of Islamist movement that is likely to pursue one man, one vote, once, and that opposes the Oslo accords, which are the very basis for the existence of the Palestinian authority, in my view Fatahs acts against Hamas are hardly anti-democratic. If they are, they are necessary to the stage on the path to democracy that currently charecterizes the Palestinians.

were exactly is this capability you speak of, lotm?

But ultimately this capability isnt about current political parties, it is inherent in human beings, especially once they assert a pragmatic drive toward a nation state. I beleive that is the direction politics on the West Bank is headed.

I dont ask the Israelis to drop their defenses in heady faith in Palestinian democracy.

But I do not believe that Buckley assertion is an inevitable state of Palestinian politics. Indeed, it is not an accurate charecterization of africa.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Victor Galis


What policies are those? They seem to be generally unhappy that they lost.

Not having been present at the rally I cant say what the policies are. Presumably a party unhappy at losing is unhappy about ALL policy differences. Being unhappy about personality or other differences is also a part of democracy.


I would suspect that crackdowns on Fatah members are among the policies they dont like. Perhaps also Hamas refusal to endorse Oslo. Perhaps also their Islamist policies.

[Victor Galis]

I strongly suspect we wouldn't be in this situation, had Israel not basically laid siege to all of Gaza.

The policy since followed since Hamas won the elections has certainly made Israel no friends on the Palestinian side, and has probably sidelined anyone in Hamas that wanted to try something different (you know, something other than launching rockets into Israel.) Hamas probably won the election because Fatah was corrupt, but cutting off aid effectively punished the Palestinian people as if they'd all endorsed the most hardline of Hamas choices. It's like... yeah, we like Democracy in the Middle East, except when you pick the guys that hate us.

Quite frankly the whole situation is a giant mess, and I'm not entirely sure how to "solve" the problem, but I'm generally pretty sure that allowing exports to resume from Gaza would be part of it.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Victor Galis

I strongly suspect we wouldn't be in this situation, had Israel not basically laid siege to all of Gaza.

So basically Hamas is never responsible for Hamas' behavior, when they do something like this, we need to change the subject to Israel.

The policy since followed since Hamas won the elections has certainly made Israel no friends on the Palestinian side,

I dont think everyone in Fatah would agree.

and has probably sidelined anyone in Hamas that wanted to try something different (you know, something other than launching rockets into Israel.)

Oh yeah, theres always some hidden moderates. There was abundant chance for them to rise, and plenty of incentive. Didnt happen.

Hamas probably won the election because Fatah was corrupt, but cutting off aid effectively punished the Palestinian people as if they'd all endorsed the most hardline of Hamas choices.

Hamas had to be cut off to prevent it from using funds from the West for terror, and to get them to change their position. It was not the intention to punish the people, but there was no way around it. Now there is.

It's like... yeah, we like Democracy in the Middle East, except when you pick the guys that hate us.

Or guys who refuse to accept the peace accords on which the recognition of the Palestinian Authority is based. And who dont really beleive in democracy anyway.

Quite frankly the whole situation is a giant mess, and I'm not entirely sure how to "solve" the problem,

Strengthen the Abbas-Fayed govt, improve security cooperation, make clear to the Pals there is a political horizon, etc.

but I'm generally pretty sure that allowing exports to resume from Gaza would be part of it.

That will require addressing the security situation at the border crossings. Hamas hasnt been particularly helpful on that.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
And yet, they are/were in the minority. Obviously Hamas is in the wrong cracking down, but having protests because you lost the election isn't exactly democratic.

WTF.

[Victor Galis]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by lord of the mark

ISo basically Hamas is never responsible for Hamas' behavior, when they do something like this, we need to change the subject to Israel.

Ultimately, they've decided they want nothing to do with a Hamas government, cut off all but the barest contact to the outside world and would now have you believe that this is what a Hamas-run government would be like under normal circumstances.

Oh yeah, theres always some hidden moderates. There was abundant chance for them to rise, and plenty of incentive. Didnt happen.

Dunno, that PM they appointed didn't seem particularly blood-thirsty. Israel's response to a Hamas government was to imediately take a hardline that makes it difficult for Hamas to do anything other than maintain a hardline position.

Hamas had to be cut off to prevent it from using funds from the West for terror, and to get them to change their position. It was not the intention to punish the people, but there was no way around it. Now there is.

Do you honestly think destroying what little was left of the Palestinian economy and starving people will change Hamas's position?

Strengthen the Abbas-Fayed govt, improve security cooperation, make clear to the Pals there is a political horizon, etc.

Abbas is still the leader of a horribly corrupt organization, which will horribly mishandle the business of government and we'll get a repeat of the current situation in a few years when next they hold elections.

WTF.

Taking to the streets because you couldn't win at the ballot box? Vocal minorities aren't supposed to get their ways in democracy.