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**Alexander's Horse** · August 12, 2007, 04:28

somebody or something had to make the big bang go bang!

**BeBMan** · August 12, 2007, 04:43

Re: Another dilemma about debating on religion!

Originally posted by Traianvs
Now muy wuestion to you is what would be the best thing to say to this kind of people without hurtign their feelings too much (they'er usuallt a biut fanatic about their relious zeal)/
I'm usually a bit undiplomatic, and while I completely attempt to destroy their dignity for saying that kind of crap tome I still want to see some 'objective' opinions on this...?

IMO the best thing would be not to waste time debating beliefs you're not going to change anyway....

**Elok** · August 12, 2007, 06:45

Re: Re: Another dilemma about debating on religion!

Originally posted by BeBro
IMO the best thing would be not to waste time debating beliefs you're not going to change anyway....

I'm religious, but I concur. You can't win by arguing, all you'll do is cement his belief that the world is opposed to everything he stands for. You'd get farther just being nice and avoiding the subject.

**Proteus_MST** · August 12, 2007, 06:56

It´s always dificulty to argue with Creationists.

I heard of a biologist who had contact to a creationist who held lectures which contained lots of criticism on the Theory of Evolution.
The biologist explained to him why he (the creationist) was wrong with a lot of statements he used in his lectures in his attempts to make it appear the ToE to be false.
After a long discussion via eMail the creationist had to conclude that the biologist was correct. Nevertheless in his next lectures the creationist would bring exactly these incorrect points (where he was disproven by the biologist) again.
It seems like Creationists often have some kind of blind spot regarding the shortcomings of their arguments against theory of evolution.

But here is a nice page with question you could ask your creationist, maybe it will at least give him something to think about

FABNAQ

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/fabnaq.html

**Nikolai** · August 12, 2007, 08:14

For me, what's important is that God created. How he created it is an interesting subject, but ultimately of little to no relevance.

**Alexander's Horse** · August 12, 2007, 08:44

creationists are silly but the idea that the universe in its immensity just sprang into being out of nothing is pretty unsatisfying too

**Proteus_MST** · August 12, 2007, 09:03

Yes, that´s the difference.

Even without believing in the literal truth of the bible (or whatever "holy" book) there is enough room for faith in a god that might even be responsible for the creation of the universe.

With creationists I often have the feeling that the reason why they desparately argue in favor of creationism is, that all of their faith is connected to the literal truth of the bible and that they cannot believe in god if the bible were not literal true.
It seems to me that creationists, in a way, don´t believe in god, but in the bible

edited: Just deleted some characters that didn´t belong here

**SlowwHand** · August 12, 2007, 11:49

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
somebody or something had to make the big bang go bang!

One of those QFT moments.

**Nostromo** · August 12, 2007, 13:31

I'm tired of the laisser-faire attitude. You may think you're being tolerant, but you're just being lazy. I see it as my duty to fight stupidity. OTOH, I sometimes get tired of it. There's just so much of it, its overwhelming. And you defeatists are not helping one bit.

Faith is basically an unshakeable set of beliefs that guides, that structures your life. And that's perfectly OK. I have no beef against religion per se. And I don't think its stupid per se. An intelligent Christian adapts the tenets of his faith to the facts. He doesn't interpret the Bible literally. You can have an intelligent conversation with an intelligent Christian or Muslim an even make them change their minds on certain things. Even though their core beliefs will probably remain more or less the same, you can still hope to make his belief system more rational. If you convince him to stop interpreting the Bible literally, for example, its an important start.

OTOH, you cannot say the same of fundamentalists like Creationists. The problem with creationists is that they're either muddleheaded or they're so intellectually dishonest that they use all the means necessary, all the dirty tricks in the book in order to appear be right. BeBro gave a classic example earlier:

After a long discussion via eMail the creationist had to conclude that the biologist was correct. Nevertheless in his next lectures the creationist would bring exactly these incorrect points (where he was disproven by the biologist) again.
It seems like Creationists often have some kind of blind spot regarding the shortcomings of their arguments against theory of evolution.

Underneath it all is, I believe, a lack of faith in themselves and their fellow men. They suspect that that their faith or their fellow men's is not strong enough to face the theory of evolution. They fear a massive "conversion" to atheism and the perceived practical consequence of this: immorality, crime, etc, etc.

This is a very different attitude than the one would have had a brilliant Christian like Aquinas, who would have said: "Darwin, eh? Well, bring it on!" Aquinas wasn't afraid to test his faith. He believed in himself. Of course, he was a trained philosopher and a genius so he could defend himself

**BeBMan** · August 12, 2007, 13:59

OTOH, you cannot say the same of fundamentalists like Creationists. The problem with creationists is that they're either muddleheaded or they're sophists who use all means necessary, all the dirty tricks in the book in order to appear be right.

Which is why I would not waste my time with them

Re attitude - I mean as long it's personal between me and another one. Then I don't see why I should sacrifice my time for converting someone when I have the feeling he will never accept anything that goes against his POV.

It's something different if it would be something that goes beyond me and him, where other people are involved. Like for example if he'd try to convince my kids that creationism is right and that evolution is all wrong. Or imagine public debates about practical changes in politics or so. There it's certainly wiser to take a stand even if you don't convince the opponent (which you can't probably expect anyway), since it's all about the audience anyway.

**DinoDoc** · August 12, 2007, 14:05

You could ask them how the book could ever disprove the existance of the author if they insist that Evolution is by definition a "goddless" theory?

**Elok** · August 12, 2007, 14:25

I'm not being defeatist, Nostromo, just putting it out there that there are other means to win than by direct confrontation. Direct confrontation works about well with fanatics here as it has against fanatics in Iraq. In both cases you can win battle after battle but they can still choose to deny you the war.

Someone like me or BK or Nikolai might be able to argue with a creationist on that level--might. It depends on the creationist in particular, really. Most of the fundies wouldn't accept me, as I'm a dirty icon-kissing idolater and all that. But as an atheist, or even an agnostic, you're probably classified as The Enemy (TM). They won't even listen.

The trick to defeating fanaticism seems to be patience and friendliness. Eventually even the stupidest tend to notice that you're not quite the boogeyman they thought you were. They can't attack you for being decent, so they'll either retreat from your company to avoid the cognitive dissonance or start to question what they've been taught. That approach has broken people out of Scientology, and made angry militants give information freely to their captors; it can probably break people out of belief in dinosaurs on the ark too.

**Master Zen** · August 12, 2007, 15:06

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
creationists are silly but the idea that the universe in its immensity just sprang into being out of nothing is pretty unsatisfying too

We don't know what caused the big bang (sorry religious folks, we really don't know no matter what you claim) but at least science isn't inventing causes. That, to me, is a fundamental difference.

EDIT: gave the religious crowd a great chance to dodge the issue with a spelling mistake.

**DinoDoc** · August 12, 2007, 15:08

Originally posted by Master Zen
We don't know what caused the big band

I thought the big band was invented in the 1920's. How could it's origin be such a mystery?

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Another dilemma about debating on religion!

Another dilemma about debating on religion!

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