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  • It seems that my field is full of jerks

    Yes it's true. I think.

    We're always racing against time being reactive and trying to adapt to new situations, new exploits, new technology and new demands (security field).

    However, I think the whole setup is twisted. We're asking ourselves the wrong questions, as in "how can we secure this information 100%". The real answer is we never really can. It's as simple as that. Should that even be the goal?

    So people come up with pretty good ideas, pretty good implementations of those ideas to secure information. Encryption, for example, is pretty damn strong. We can have extremely secure communication these days. I'm sure there's lots of countries with their own departments, but since NSA can't keep anything inside so we know about some of the things they have (as opposed to not knowing what others have, not making it worse by the way). So those guys were on top of the crypto world for a long time until few people just came up with the same techniques by themselves because they were ****ing smart bunch of individuals. They also happened to make that information public, because they were in the academia. This naturally was a positive thing, since after that individuals could have their own secrets as opposed to government monopoly on secrets, as well as the crucial information could be now more secure because people were pushed to do more and develop better technologies.

    So it's a race and it'll never end. When we truly realize this, then we understand the nature of it. We can never win it. We can only do damage control. It's a game, it's all just a game. You can either accept it or deny the reality.

    So as we come up with better solutions and try to get to know the opponents better and better, you bet your ass some solutions require loss of all privacy. Now, my own suggestions to combat and track down the more elusive players is somewhat tricky, because it breaks all the moral and ethical codes known to man. And it's still not 100% proof.

    But I find the IDEA interesting. I find it to be a model to be inducted into the game. But the problem is, I have knowingly given up all the moral and ethical considerations while working the solution.

    Do I really want things like this to be implemented? No. It is way too intrusive. It basically deals with my speciality, that is modifying the behaviour of people into more secure personal conduct and action. So as we are installing thoughts into people and enforcing them by rules, monitoring the process with intrusive methods, I find myself asking the question of ... sure, this is just theory, but what if people take this so seriously as to actually do this?

    To me it's like developing more destructive weapons. Do I want to be known as the person who came up with it? If it's out there, it will be used. Some part of blame must fall on that person. So should that be my legacy?

    I can always suggest methods that are more suitable considering the rights of people and workers, however people in charge will be more interested in the "ok let's think outside the box, this is something more hardcore... warning you can't actually do this".

    It's almost guaranteed it will be done. I've talked about it with few people who know my work and they're like it's OK but I know some people are jerks and would be glad to focus on securing information with ways that far exceeds the ethical codes we as people should follow.

    So I don't know how I should feel about it. I'd go to speak to a bunch of people, an audience, waiting for me to explain how things basically work and what the current alternatives are. And all those alternatives have to do with changing the behaviour of people rather subtly but efficiently.
    In da butt.
    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

  • #2
    If its a field you chose, why should you be surprised?
    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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    • #3
      Well, the people I deal with are often jerks. Not necessarily the actual people in the very spesific I'm in. That is the people I deal with, the people that are interested in my work. They usually have motivation to "do anything that it takes" to secure.

      Ethical and moral codes are not something that I'm supposed to worry, it's not my job, however when it comes to privacy and certain rights of people, well I think they do matter. I don't like intrusive technologies. I'm supposed to deal it from the pure perpsective of technology, but I know how they will be used, that is they will be abused. Very few people in the end will care about it or consider the implications.

      For example the wire taps in US, national level. People just don't care enough. I would be interested developing and testing such technology, but I would not be interested implementing it, putting it to actual use. I know some people care but there will never be enough response for things like that to NOT be used. And it's really sad.

      I believe there is a balance between security and other things. And security must be the one adapting to the situation, not people adjusting to new security stuff. That's just not going to serve people in the long run.

      It's stuff like "uuh Estonia just got hit in cyberwar act 1!!". No they didn't. They got few of their sites dossed for some time using botnets. That's not cyberwar. This directly implies, that should the entity that did it had any political motivation, but also being some underground group, it would have been called cyberterrorism.

      I politely decline thinking so. It's just overblown. I already know how this story will continue. We will soon see some hacks being labeled as acts of war. As if what happened was something new or spectacular (or harmed anyone/anything). But there's lots of folks with self serving interest. My people would be interested in the false labels because it means we can charge more, we can make so much more money. The people securing the information are interested in it, because it gives them tools to demand harsh punishments and "send out a message" to attackers. For media it serves a purpose because it's simply more sexy and it sells stories. But it isn't the reality of the situation, but it will become one at some point.
      In da butt.
      "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
      THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
      "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

      Comment


      • #4
        No, I meant that the type of people who go into certain fields are often self-selective. You picked the field. You are a jerk, It should not be surprising that there are other jerks who would pick that field.
        Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

        Comment


        • #5
          Right. Well just know this: as I'm working in security for a lot of people at some point, I'll be the one who will not introduce methods or rules that will violate your privacy in the name of security. I'm not the one who will just wire tap everyone or read your e-mails. When it comes to that, I say **** it, we just need to risk some things, we can't control everything and it shouldn't be the goal.
          In da butt.
          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
          "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: It seems that my field is full of jerks

            Originally posted by Pekka
            Yes it's true. I think.

            We're always racing against time being reactive and trying to adapt to new situations, new exploits, new technology and new demands (security field).


            If you are reactive, the enemy has already passed your defenses and are robbing you treasures - you need to be proactive.

            Dammit, Pekka, you'll never be a consultant if you don't learn the rigth vocabulary
            With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

            Steven Weinberg

            Comment


            • #7
              Damn, Pekka doesn't go for the bait.
              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

              Comment


              • #8
                blackcat, sure we can always talk about proactive, such as changing the behaviour of employees. But we will be always reactive, that's just a matter of fact. Against things like 0 day exploits, well it pretty much constitutes that we have to be reactive. We can't change the reality.

                But sure, for money making purposes and the new car, it's proactive methods, organized crime and cyberterrorism. Oh, and critical national infrastructures. And war.
                In da butt.
                "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                Comment


                • #9
                  BC, in fact I'm not that worried about private sector. People are usually pretty good in there. They have to always justify the cost and the resources for these things and they can't even show the ROI (unless they totally make it up, which they sometimes do). So you are battling with the other departments when it comes to resources, and the business units basically make it so that you would never be able to do your own little 1984 scenario. So what you need is great people, talented CSO's. And they don't go for the hype, they know what's going on and what to do.

                  I'm more worried about the public sector. There's lots of people who basically would benefit from all kinds of deals, too much people with self serving interest and no responsibility over this stuff. I like the business part, the real business part of these things. It means you really have to justify everything in terms of money, so it also means you won't get half of it. So you'll deal with the situation using real skills. Public sector? Kiss your rights goodbye.
                  In da butt.
                  "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                  THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                  "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Re: It seems that my field is full of jerks

                    Originally posted by BlackCat



                    Dammit, Pekka, you'll never be a consultant if you don't learn the rigth vocabulary

                    What vocabulary should he be learning?
                    Could you spell it for me?
                    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                    "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                    He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Re: Re: It seems that my field is full of jerks

                      Originally posted by SlowwHand



                      What vocabulary should he be learning?
                      Could you spell it for me?
                      Consultant gibberish
                      With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                      Steven Weinberg

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yeah, but that's not what I do. I'd like to aim for honesty. It goes a long way, if I set my own prices. That is, the service is supposed to have a value, BS is not any value to the customer.

                        Besides, I'm not in the business of selling technology, so my interests are not invested in selling you **** you don't need. On the contrary, I might suggest cutting some investments on useless tech. We might want to invest it in say, training employees. The idea is to get the most bang for your buck and let you know where you are, as in if you invest x amount of money, you'll get z. The choice is now up to you mr. manager. So by just speaking in terms of reality, you're way ahead of many other players. I'll provide them with the knowledge and they then decide what to do. For example with 0d exploits, I'll just explain that you need to be aware of them at all times, that means someone needs to really check them 24/7 and when some of them exploits are actually working for your stuff, you need someone to fix the vulnerabilities ASAP. Then I explain what kind of resources you need to be able to respond so they can estimate the need for it and should they go for it.

                        I'm not going to scream ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US crap and try to make everyone scared. You're providing common sense to people who don't have it in a spesific field. That's all.

                        Also, I'm starting my dissertation soon and the research for it, so I don't need to play the devil's advocate. I just need to do my dissertation properly. That's it. I don't need to sell **** to anyone. My expertise on the very matter can be bought, but there's no need to invent extra crap just to make it more juicy. This is security, it's juicy enough already.
                        In da butt.
                        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Re: It seems that my field is full of jerks

                          Originally posted by BlackCat




                          If you are reactive, the enemy has already passed your defenses and are robbing you treasures - you need to be proactive.

                          Dammit, Pekka, you'll never be a consultant if you don't learn the rigth vocabulary
                          He needs to think outside the box and downsize.
                          “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
                          "Capitalism ho!"

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                          • #14
                            dashi, not necessary. We can't show you any kind of ROI in this business. You only see it when it fails. That is, if nothing comes up, we've succeeded. So you only invest. Only to not lose. So we're not in the firing people business. If anything, we're in the "you could use a guy who can"-business.
                            In da butt.
                            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Kind of like medicine. It's a self-destructive business.
                              “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
                              "Capitalism ho!"

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