Did Russia just bomb Georgia?

[Kataphraktoi]

Im not seeing the proof part.

[Patroklos]

Hmmm....

This was a civilian target right? Isn't it Russian procedure to use fuel air bombs on such things?

[Nikolai]

Sounds like an accident which Russia won't acknowledge. Not so weird really, it's not like Russia has much of a good reputation on aggression, and I'm sure Putin don't need another proof to the world of his administration's incompetence AND aggressiveness.

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Hmmm....

This was a civilian target right? Isn't it Russian procedure to use fuel air bombs on such things?

You could prove alot operating on the level of data in the article.

Im not a fan of russia, but this is just finger pointing. If anything it was a mistake

[germanos]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi


You could prove alot operating on the level of data in the article.

Im not a fan of russia, but this is just finger pointing. If anything it was a mistake

If it's russian, the question still is what the airplanes where doing in Georgian airspace

[Ellestar]

Sigh of course everyone believes Georgia just because you want Georgia in NATO. When Russia said that there are no 700 kg bombs in existence, Georgia said that it's a missile. However, they dismantiled all significant parts from that missile before the arrival of peacekeeping forces (so even the type of the missile can't be confirmed by a peacekeeping forces). Now tell me who the hell destroys favorable evidence if there is one in the first place? After all, there should be a serial number on that missile that can unambiguously prove who recieved that shipment of that kind of weapon. So, if you're not retarded enough to believe that Gerogia destroyed evidence that it was a Russian missile, then there is only one conclusion - it wasn't a Russian missile.

[Elok]

I don't really care if Georgia joins NATO. I didn't even know it was on the table. It's just that at this point we could believe anything of Putin, up to and including charges that he breakfasts on babies every morning.

[Ellestar]

Originally posted by Elok
I don't really care if Georgia joins NATO. I didn't even know it was on the table. It's just that at this point we could believe anything of Putin, up to and including charges that he breakfasts on babies every morning.

And after that they say that Russian press isn't free and it's controlled by government... Looks like brainwashing proceeds just fine in other parts of the world, without the control of Russian government. Of course, Putin is an evil dictator. He has what, just a mere 80%-85% domestic support - an obvious dictator who opresses it's people. After all, Bush has about 20% support - true democratic leader, close to the people! And Bhutan is a constitutional monarchy, that makes it even more democratic

Besides, if you think that Russian weapons suck so much (your previous post), then why your own military uses them? And your lovely India (your closest ally if i'm not mistaken) uses them like there is no tomorrow.

[Arrian]

Most of us know that one of the surest signs of a free society is that a leader will occasionally (hell, often!) have terrible approval ratings. Consistently high approvals (75%+) are highly suspect. It suggests either tampering with the numbers or a lot of propoganda.

Anyway, Elok was exaggerating just a wee bit. Most of us are simply very suspicious of Putin.

Bush's high approvals lasted only so long as he was able to convince people he was doing a good job. Once it became clear he wasn't, they crashed. Granted, it was way late, but it happened. Putin is a more competant leader than Bush, but he's also scarier in some ways (particularly, I would think, to Russia's neighbors and to his own people, but it would seem that the latter group still love him).

-Arrian

[alva]

He has what, just a mere 80%-85% domestic support - an obvious dictator who opresses it's people

As Arrian said, you really aren't going to use that to present your case, are you? With a war going on or a marriage or something, a politician might get a very short spike and lift his or her ratings to such a high level but when it remains there, eyebrows will get raised.
Did Bush even hit 85% the days after 9/11?

[Elok]

Originally posted by Arrian
Anyway, Elok was exaggerating just a wee bit. Most of us are simply very suspicious of Putin.

Speak for yourself, Arrian. I clearly saw Putin trying to suck that little boy's soul out through his belly button. That man is EVIL, through and through.

Ellestar, a couple of things:

1. Since when is India our "closest ally?" Unless by that you mean "chief supplier of math and physics professors," I think you are in fact mistaken.

2. I did not know we purchased Russian arms (except for those AK-47s we misplaced in Iraq). It does not matter, since I never claimed our own administration was competent. Beware the et tu quoque fallacy...

3. I meant to attack not the Russian arms industry but the Russian Armed Forces, which are regularly cited as the biggest fustercluck in the industrialized world. I suppose I was inaccurate.

4. What Arrian and Alva said. And Bush isn't a dictator, he's an overgrown toddler throwing a constitutional-rights-destroying hissy-fit at people who contradict or oppose him. I believe his intentions are basically good, he's just pig-headed and silly.

5. You aren't Serb, are you? Just asking.

[alva]

Maybe there are all Serbs or even worse, there are all Serb.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by alva
Maybe there are all Serbs or even worse, there are all Serb.

Serb

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ellestar
And your lovely India (your closest ally if i'm not mistaken) uses them like there is no tomorrow.

I thought India was Russia's historical ally, not the US's. Hence the reason we're closer to Pakistan then them.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ellestar
Sigh of course everyone believes Georgia just because you want Georgia in NATO. When Russia said that there are no 700 kg bombs in existence, Georgia said that it's a missile. However, they dismantiled all significant parts from that missile before the arrival of peacekeeping forces (so even the type of the missile can't be confirmed by a peacekeeping forces). Now tell me who the hell destroys favorable evidence if there is one in the first place?

People afraid that an unexploded missile might blow up?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070809/wl_afp/russiageorgiaraid_070809201935

Georgia, Russia deadlocked over mystery missile strike by Irakli Metreveli
Thu Aug 9, 4:23 PM ET


TBILISI (AFP) - Georgia attempted to rally international support Thursday behind its allegations that a Russian plane engaged in a missile strike on its territory, amid angry denials from Moscow.


Georgia's minister for conflict resolution, David Bakradze, released a report he said was written by Europe's main security and democracy body, the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

The report, which has not been released by the OSCE, says that military observers in Georgia at the time of Monday's incident saw one aircraft flying from the northeast.

"There is no other country than Russia to the northeast," said Bakradze.

Other monitors reported seeing a plane fly from southwest to northeast, the report said.

An OSCE spokeswoman in Vienna, Virginie Coulloudon, confirmed the document was genuine, but stressed that it was "an internal report that does not represent the position of the OSCE."

The United Nations Security Council said it would wait for more information before acting after the 4.8 metre (15.7-foot) missile landed in a field some 50 kilometres (30 miles) from the Georgian capital on Monday.

"We are looking forward to hear more about the facts ... from OSCE particularly ... so that would enable the Security Council to have a full picture of the situation before engaging any action," said a statement from Congolese ambassador to the UN Pascal Gayama, who is presiding over the Security Council this month.

The missile did not explode and caused no injuries, but Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili accused Russia of bombarding Georgia, raising the stakes in already tense relations between the pro-Western country and its Soviet-era master.

Meanwhile, Georgian Foreign Minister Gela Bezhuashvili engaged in a round of telephone diplomacy to try to secure the holding of a UN Security Council session to discuss the incident.

"The Georgian foreign ministry is working very actively to obtain adequate international support over this missile incident and the minister held a series of conversations with his foreign counterparts," his spokeswoman, Nino Kizhaia, said.

Russia has been infuriated by Georgia's preparations to join the Western-led NATO military alliance, regarding them as an incursion into its historical sphere of influence.

On Thursday a NATO spokeswoman said that the alliance's Deputy Secretary General Alessandro Minuto Rizzo had spoken by phone with Bezhuashvili.

"They agreed that NATO would stay in close contact with the Georgian authorities and that it will follow the ongoing investigations," said the spokeswoman, Carmen Romero.

But Russia again rejected claims that one of its jets had entered Georgian airspace and released a missile.

Senior air force officer Igor Khvorov told journalists in Moscow "we didn't plan or carry out any flights over Georgian territory.... It's fairly difficult to talk about the flight because there was none."

Russia also accused Georgia of tampering with evidence.

A senior Russian officer, Major General Marat Kulakhmetov, said that Georgian officials had removed "all the main pieces of the explosive device" before investigators arrived at the scene.

However, a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry, Shota Khizanishvili, said that part of the missile had simply been destroyed for safety as it "contained a large quantity of TNT."

In a statement, the OSCE urged "an inclusive investigation" with "participation of all implicated parties."

Meanwhile the United States said it was looking into the incident.

Such "provocations need to end," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack warned.

Later Thursday another US official indicated on Georgian television that Washington did not believe assertions that Georgia had attacked itself.

"We listened to the statement that it was Georgia who bombarded its own territory. But there is no any evidence to say that this is the case," said Matthew Bryza, US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs.

"The most important thing is that Georgia undertake a credible investigation. Georgia has presented serious information which must now be examined within the United Nations," he said, according to comments translated first into Georgian and then back to English by AFP.