Troops Out! Finally.

[Cort Haus]

The British army's operation in Northern Ireland will come to an end at midnight on Tuesday after 38 years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6923342.stm

Yet another 'historic day' in the never-ending succession of 'historic days' in the protracted peace process of Northern Ireland.

[East Street Trader]

Wow.

Now that is a thing I never thought to see.

Props to all those who have got things this far.

[Patroklos]

Are their actually bases in Northern Ireland, and this means they are just goint to stop patroling?

Is there not any military infrustructure in NI period?

[MOBIUS]

And I thought this was going to be a copycat thread...

Indeed a momentous day!

Proof that dialogue and negotiation even with people considered sworn enemies and terrorists is preferable to armed conflict...

[Patroklos]

Do you think this would have happened without armed conflict?

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Are their actually bases in Northern Ireland, and this means they are just goint to stop patroling?

Is there not any military infrustructure in NI period?

From the Beeb link :

A garrison of 5,000 troops will remain but security will be entirely the responsibility of the police.

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Do you think this would have happened without armed conflict?

Well yes because there were no troops there before the troubles started in the 60's

[Patroklos]

So?

[East Street Trader]

The catholic minority were oppressed in N. Ireland when I was a boy. They were kept out of jobs and had difficulty in getting their voice heard in the political arena.

That is no longer true.

To what extent they had to resort to violence in order to obtain redress for their grievances it is impossible to know.

But I would be willing to believe that if the answer is that violence was not essential nevertheless violence will have brought about change more quickly.

The need for troops patrolling the streets was part of the cost the violence brought.

Anyway, looking back is a part of the Irish disease. Looking forward is much more productive. I hope that trust in each other can now take root in N. Ireland and that all the people there can find ways to co-operate together within the wider Union that now is Europe.

Southern Ireland seems to have done particularly well at that. As the ever closer Union progresses I suspect the sovereignty issues that have caused such grief in the island will come to seem incomprehensible and absurd.

Which is what they have always been.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by East Street Trader
As the ever closer Union progresses I suspect the sovereignty issues that have caused such grief in the island will come to seem incomprehensible and absurd.

Which is what they have always been.

I disagree. Ireland was under a historical and long-term occupation, and under such circumstances sovereignty issues will be inevitable, and neither incomprehensible nor absurd.

[East Street Trader]

I doubt I would have understood sovereignty issues in Ireland before the UK and Ireland joined the Union. Certainly not as a sufficient cause to kill and maime.

But since they both joined it has surely been odd for people who were all content to be members of the Union to care so very much as to exactly which member state they belonged to?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Do you think this would have happened without armed conflict?

Do you not believe that the UK is/was a democracy? Democracies or even countries that pretend to be such generally don't need terrorist groups pushing for rights that could have been granted in non-violent ways as it only serves to ****** the quest they claim to be after.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by East Street Trader
But since they both joined it has surely been odd for people who were all content to be members of the Union to care so very much as to exactly which member state they belonged to?

It's not clear to me what the feelings were about the EU amongst the peoples of NI at the time of joining. Not that Britain joined the EU, it joined something different which later became the EU.

Certainly Europe has lessened the relevance of conflict, but the fact will always remain that Ireland was part of the British Empire and for the most part a reluctant one. Pro-British citizens were bussed in, and British control withdrawn to a corner that was basically gerrymandered to create a pro-British majority.

For those British-descended peoples whose ancestors had lived there for hundreds of years, they were reluctant to be ruled by what they feared as a papist theocracy. The fact that they used to enjoy better living standards than the catholics also warmed them towards the status quo.

Those are the roots of the conflict, but the ending of discrimination against catholics, coupled with a weary acceptance by both sides that the other lot are there to stay has led to the current improvement.

[East Street Trader]

Yes, that summarises things well.

It is the fact that it took hundreds of years for people to decide to get on with each other rather than constantly to re-open ancient wounds that makes me think the issues were silly ones.

In any place under the sun people have found ways to get themselves mixed together. And there will be reasons why some can then claim to be dispossessed by others.

Finding ways to co-operate pays off, resting on rights rooted in the past doesn't.

Anyway, as a Brit living in England I am mighty glad the Irish are looking to bury the hatchet. And I give some of the credit to the Union. It was founded with the intent of reducing the reasons for war between nation states in Europe and if it turns out, as I think is happening in Ireland, to reduce the sort of nationalist passions felt in N. Ireland or the Basque country or Brittany or wherever then that is all to the good.

[Patroklos]

Do you not believe that the UK is/was a democracy? Democracies or even countries that pretend to be such generally don't need terrorist groups pushing for rights that could have been granted in non-violent ways as it only serves to ****** the quest they claim to be after.

I was talking about Britain using troops to supress the IRA, not the IRA using violence to meet their ends.