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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ramo


    The difference is likely to be pretty small compared either of them and whoever held up the sign. Among Republicans, Chelsea's momma is generally considered to be the more liberal of the two.


    Page not found - Rasmussen Reports®
    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/47_view_clinton_as_politically_liberal



    yeah, folks project whatever they want onto Obama, you can get away with that when you avoid substance. Wont last though.
    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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    • #17
      Or which signs they would hold up in front of cameras...
      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
      -Bokonon

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      • #18
        yeah, folks project whatever they want onto Obama, you can get away with that when you avoid substance. Wont last though.
        Seeing as how Obama has probably put out at least as many policy proposals as Clinton (as an example, we still haven't gotten her health care plan yet), I'm at a lost at what exactly "avoiding substance" means. He's a little behind Edwards, but so is everyone else...

        His stump speeches emphasize narrative over laundry list, but I don't really see why that's a bad thing. It's not like laundry lists have worked for the Dems lately.
        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
        -Bokonon

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ramo


          Seeing as how Obama has probably put out at least as many policy proposals as Clinton (as an example, we still haven't gotten her health care plan yet), I'm at a lost at what exactly "avoiding substance" means. He's a little behind Edwards, but so is everyone else...

          His stump speeches emphasize narrative over laundry list, but I don't really see why that's a bad thing. It's not like laundry lists have worked for the Dems lately.
          A narrative is fine, if you have a clear identification with substance, as Hillary does. Obama is a two year Senator, and before that a state legislator - what bio is there to narrate?

          Bill Clinton combined substance and narrative, and won twice. Gore ran on substance, but not the right substance, and ran away from a succesful admin record, and lost. Kerry was above all about narrative, image, and lost.
          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ramo


            Seeing as how Obama has probably put out at least as many policy proposals as Clinton (as an example, we still haven't gotten her health care plan yet), I'm at a lost at what exactly "avoiding substance" means. He's a little behind Edwards, but so is everyone else...
            Obama can get away with a plan othat on the one hand doesnt guarantee universal coverage, and OTOH doesnt show how it will be paid for, cause folks arent looking that closely. When Hillary of all people proposes a health care plan, it will be gone over with a fine tooth comb, so she really does need to be careful in putting it together.
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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            • #21
              I'm not talking about the theme of the campaign, but how they communicate ideas. Obama is unique, AFAIK, in using the narrative (i.e. telling the story of America, how we kept fighting for progressive causes, etc.). While the style is generally less specific wrt policy than, say, an Edwards speech, it's a lot more effective. Kerry BTW was all laundry list.
              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
              -Bokonon

              Comment

              • #22
                Obama can get away with a plan othat on the one hand doesnt guarantee universal coverage,
                It does. It just doesn't have an individual mandate so that if the program doesn't initially work out - i.e. the subsidy is too small, people aren't screwed. MA, for example, had to revise their subsidy. I think it's a good idea to phase in the individual mandate after everything's working right.

                and OTOH doesnt show how it will be paid for,
                It does. He said he wanted to roll back the Bush tax cuts on those making over $200,000.
                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                -Bokonon

                Comment

                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ramo
                  I'm not talking about the theme of the campaign, but how they communicate ideas. Obama is unique, AFAIK, in using the narrative (i.e. telling the story of America, how we kept fighting for progressive causes, etc.). While the style is generally less specific wrt policy than, say, an Edwards speech, it's a lot more effective. Kerry BTW was all laundry list.
                  I guess i never actually heard Kerrys stump speech. I was under the general impression from the convention, and earlier stuff about him, that his war hero persona was the key theme of his campaign.

                  I certainly dont think Kerrys performance as a campaigner says much about Hillarys.
                  "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ramo


                    It does. It just doesn't have an individual mandate so that if the program doesn't initially work out - i.e. the subsidy is too small, people aren't screwed. MA, for example, had to revise their subsidy. I think it's a good idea to phase in the individual mandate after everything's working right.



                    It does. He said he wanted to roll back the Bush tax cuts on those making over $200,000.
                    If theres no mandate, theres no universal care.

                    So hes not going to use the roll back of the Bush tax cuts to reduce the budget deficit? Interesting.
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      right now Obama doesnt do much better than Hillary in one on one match ups, despite Hillary having been subject to the GOP attack machine for over 15 years, while theyve mainly held their fire against Obama.
                      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        Again, I'm talking about selling ideas, NOT biographical background. Obama does that with a story, while most other Dems have their laundry lists (including Clinton from what I've heard).
                        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                        -Bokonon

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          If theres no mandate, theres no universal care.
                          It's universal to anyone who wants it. Are you saying that people should be forced into buying a plan that doesn't have its kinks worked out?

                          So hes not going to use the roll back of the Bush tax cuts to reduce the budget deficit? Interesting.
                          His plan costs $50-65 billion. I don't know if rolling back the tax cuts only bring that much revenue (and a correction - it's $250k, Edwards had $200k). I know that he's not taking the Krugman/Edwards stance (that I prefer) that getting important progressive programs enacted is more important than worrying about the deficit.
                          Last edited by Ramo; July 23, 2007, 17:34.
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                          -Bokonon

                          Comment

                          • #28
                            right now Obama doesnt do much better than Hillary in one on one match ups, despite Hillary having been subject to the GOP attack machine for over 15 years, while theyve mainly held their fire against Obama.
                            At the same time ~40-45% of the electorate already hates her and won't vote for her. They'll try to smear Obama, but I think he'll hold up fine. Frankly, I'm pretty sure the Dems will win regardless of who's nominated. In any other year it's likely that the difference between an Obama and a Hillary would by relatively small, but 2008 looks like another wave year, and I want to maximize Dem gains down ticket. Maybe get a filibuster-proof Senate by 2010 so we can actually see universal health care.
                            Last edited by Ramo; July 23, 2007, 17:32.
                            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                            -Bokonon

                            Comment

                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ramo
                              Again, I'm talking about selling ideas, NOT biographical background. Obama does that with a story, while most other Dems have their laundry lists (including Clinton from what I've heard).

                              My impression is shes talking a lot about her biography, and her narrative, as well as issues. Shes just not as focused on process as Obama.
                              "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ramo


                                It's universal to anyone who wants it. Are you saying that people should be forced into buying a plan that doesn't have its kinks worked out?
                                If you dont have lots of problems. On the one hand the folks who do buy insurance guaranteed to everyone are going to be the least healthy and some folks may decide simply not to buy insurance till they get sick (moral hazard). I doubt very much that Obamas cost estimates reflect that fact. Second, you dont get the full benefits in terms of reduced ER visits, etc if folks dont all buy. So yeah, theres a very strong reason to force people to buy, especially if youre not discriminating on the basis of health. As for working out the kinks, thats why you have to do it BEFORE you pass the thing. One reason Hilary may not have announced hers yet.
                                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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