Does the English class system stem from the Normans?

[Cort Haus]

Whilst there were plenty of invaders before, nothing quite scummified the locals like the Normans.

The ruling elite spoke French, subjugated the rest of the population into slavery, and literally lorded it over the English for hundreds of years. Is this the root of the bitter hatred felt by the lower classes for the higher classes in English society ever since?

Also, is the Scots hatred of the English misguided, seeing as it was the non-English aristocracy that were pissing off the Scottish, not the ordinary English, and the people who were bad to the Scots were just as bad to the English?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Yes, it did (and the Angevins, of course).

There's a hilarious section in Julian Rathbone's "The last king of England" in which William of Normandy's desperate army of bastards and rapists is described, and they all have surnames that match members of Margaret Thatcher's/John Major's Tory cabinets of the 80's and 90's.

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Also, is the Scots hatred of the English misguided, seeing as it was the non-English aristocracy that were pissing off the Scottish, not the ordinary English, and the people who were bad to the Scots were just as bad to the English?

Scotland and Saxon-era England fought many wars, and the Scots were just as likely to be invading aggressors as the English were. There was also historic strife in Strathclyde, which was like a Dark Ages Bosnia, riven by strife between Dal Riatan Scots, Picts, Britons and Saxons.

The fact is that the Dal Riatan Scots could (and did) have massive grudges against any neighbours. It's just that when pitched against the Medieval English, they went up against an even more aggressive set of invaders and came off badly.

Funnily enough, when the Normans were actually in power (ie- before Henry II), the (post Macbeth/Lulach) Scottish kings became heavily pro-Norman and largely abandoned their Celtic traditions. That caused strife with the Highlanders, who remained defiantly Celtic/Nordic under kings like Somerled.

[molly bloom]

Re: Does the English class system stem from the Normans?

Originally posted by Cort Haus

Is this the root of the bitter hatred felt by the lower classes for the higher classes in English society ever since?

I feel sure it's the root of the hatred felt for Norman French legal terms by many a crossword addict and law student.

[Sandman]

Also, is the Scots hatred of the English misguided, seeing as it was the non-English aristocracy that were pissing off the Scottish, not the ordinary English, and the people who were bad to the Scots were just as bad to the English?

What does that have to do with football?

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Sandman
What does that have to do with football?

I suspect you have got to the heart of the real conflict - fitball.

[Dauphin]

I question that too. The English like to see Scotland win, except against England. Unless you say the Scots just have an inferiority complex and don't like to see other **** football nations do marginally better in football.

[Colonâ„¢]

I figured the class-system simply derived from the industrial era, as it did elsewhere, though it appears more persistent for some reason.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Dauphin
I question that too. The English like to see Scotland win, except against England. Unless you say the Scots just have an inferiority complex and don't like to see other **** football nations do marginally better in football.

Every two or four years, every 'true' Scot becomes a raging BNP-style lunatic, more or less urged on by the Scottish Establishment. Make of that what you will.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp

There's a hilarious section in Julian Rathbone's "The last king of England" in which William of Normandy's desperate army of bastards and rapists is described, and they all have surnames that match members of Margaret Thatcher's/John Major's Tory cabinets of the 80's and 90's.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢
I figured the class-system simply derived from the industrial era, as it did elsewhere, though it appears more persistent for some reason.

A reasonable assumption, and if you substitiute Capitalism for Industrialism I'm sure Marx would have agreed with you. However, the "more persistant for some reason" points to another factor - and a possible answer for this is the basis for the thread.

[Dauphin]

An interesting offshoot is to ask why Australians are like Brits*, but without the class system.

*Actually, Eastenders is probably the correct term, and would hence answer the question.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


A reasonable assumption, and if you substitiute Capitalism for Industrialism I'm sure Marx would have agreed with you. However, the "more persistant for some reason" points to another factor - and a possible answer for this is the basis for the thread.

Still plenty of capitalism around but the class system is largely a thing of the past in most rich countries. Also witness Japan.
You speak of the French-speaking elite, but such an elite has completely vanished within several generations in the Dutch-speaking north of Belgium.

I'd rather look to the British education system, which is contrary to the egalitarian spirit in most of continental Europe. A lot can be said about egalitiaranism but not that it fails to promote social mobility. I guess it's possible that the British system is ultimately based in the Norman conquest though.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢
I'd rather look to the British education system, which is contrary to the egalitarian spirit in most of continental Europe. A lot can be said about egalitiaranism but not that it fails to promote social mobility. I guess it's possible that the British system is ultimately based in the Norman conquest though.

Scotland has a (theoretically) egalitarian education system, and I would not say that the class system is, on balance, any less pronounced here.

[Dr Strangelove]

One point that might be made about William's Normans is that many of them weren't Normans. A large portion of his army were from Brittany, and their officers were given the spoils of war on the same basis as William's Norman officers. I'm sure that many of the Britons carried historic grudges against the Anglo-Saxons.
The triumph of the Germanic tribes changed the character of Christianity in Europe. In Dark Age/Medieval Europe Christianity assimilated the warrior values of the Germanic tribes. The hierarchial nature of Medival society is largely due to a blending of Roman Christian values with tribal German values.