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The Cap Arcona- an Allied war crime?

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  • The Cap Arcona- an Allied war crime?

    I've heard it argued that the relative ignorance in the world today concerning the sinking of the Cap Arcona represents behaviour tantamount to conspiracy, or a denial to face up to the horrors of war inflicted by the Allies.

    Some have even called it a war crime. What's your opinion?

    In the last few weeks of the war in Europe, the Swedish diplomat Count Folke Bernadotte, vice-president of the Red Cross, was organising the removal of Danish and Norwegian prisoners from German concentration camps to neutral Sweden — a scheme known as the White Buses. In practice the scheme also included other nationalities.

    On April 26, 1945, the Cap Arcona was loaded with prisoners from the Neuengamme concentration camp near Hamburg and was brought into the Bay of Lübeck along with two smaller ships, Athen and Thielbek. During these days, around 140 French-speaking, West European prisoners were transferred from the Thielbek to the Magdalena for transportation to hospitals in Sweden. This rescue operation was actioned by utilising information from British Intelligence, indicating their knowledge of the deportees on board.

    On May 3, 1945, four days after Hitler's suicide but four days before the unconditional surrender of Germany, the Cap Arcona, the Thielbek, and the passenger liner SS Deutschland ,converted to a hospital ship but not marked as such, were sunk in four separate, but synchronized, attacks by RAF Typhoons of 83 Group of the 2nd Tactical Air Force as part of general attacks on shipping in the Baltic.

    The attacks were by No. 184 Squadron,[3] by No. 263 Squadron,[4] by No. 197 Squadron RAF[5] and by No. 198 Squadron.[6] These Hawker Typhoon Mark 1B fighter-bombers used "60lb" rocket projectiles, bombs, and 20 mm cannon.

    Unknown to the RAF the ships were carrying between 7,000 and 8,000 prisoners from the German concentration camps in Neuengamme, Stutthof and Mittelbau-Dora, half of whom were Russian and Polish prisoners-of-war, with the others from 24 nationalities, including French, Danish, and Dutch.[7]

    The survivors from the sinking who reached the shore were shot by SS troops, although 350 prisoners managed to escape from the massacre. Allan Wyse, formerly of 193 Fighter Squadron said "We used our cannon fire at the chaps in the water … we shot them up with 20 mm cannons in the water. Horrible thing, but we were told to do it and we did it. That's war."[8] Among the survivors was Erwin Geschonneck, who would later become a notable German actor, and whose story was made into a film in 1982.

    About 490 of the various guards, SS and crew were rescued by German boats


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  • #2
    So, what would make it a war crime in comparison to many similar incidents which are not? That there were not-Germans on board? The unpleasantly high number of death for a single case?

    I doubt that the pilots knew whom they were shooting, and if that's true, it's pretty irrelevant who was on board, unless the Allies thought it was for military purposes.
    Many many thousands of German civilian refugees dwell on the grounds of the Baltic Sea, sunk for the sole purpose of sinking them, not posing any threat to the Russians.
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    • #3
      Passenger ships were used regularly as troop transports in WWII, the Brits did this still during the Falkland war. Such ships would be valid targets. So I wouldn't call this a warcrime when they didn't know that the ship they attacked could hardly count as a military target. It's a tragedy, and also a military ****up.

      You could make a better case for other Allied bombing raids....
      Blah

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      • #4
        So, what would make it a war crime in comparison to many similar incidents which are not?
        This is a cut and dry war crime. Did you guys miss the part about shooting helpless shipwreck victims in the water? Those ships could have been transporting a Panzer Division and it would still be a war crime.
        "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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        • #5
          Shooting those in the water is certainly an atrocity.
          But I meant the attack itself - I thought they weren't aware what they were attacking? Although the article says British Intelligence had knowledge at least of some of the prisoners. But did they know they were attacking hospital ships (though without marking - another strange detail)? Afaik then it wouldn't matter anyway if the victims were German or not.
          Blah

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          • #6
            I have no problem with them attacking ships with no markings. Though I question the necessity of doing so at this stage of the war when it was obvious it would be all over soon.

            I thought they said only the SS Deuchland was missing its hospital markings?
            "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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            • #7
              Yes, it seems the others didn't serve as hospital ships (at least that's how I understand it). Of course it's pretty hard that late in the war - but IMO it all depends what they really knew, for example, if the units taking part knew the surrender was only a few days away? But the key to me is if they knew that this wasn't a military target and if they attacked it intentionally anyway. Then I would say the attack was a warcrime.
              Blah

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              • #8
                Well regardless, we have the admission of at least one person of straffing shipwreck surviviors and he implicates his commanders.

                The Brits made a big deal about tracking down U-boat types that supposedly did the same.
                "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                • #9
                  The Brits were trying to rescue concentration cam[p survivors

                  Originally posted by Patroklos View Post
                  Well regardless, we have the admission of at least one person of strafing shipwreck surviviors and he implicates his commanders.

                  The Brits made a big deal about tracking down U-boat types that did the same.
                  The British were then reading German army signals on a routine basis at Bletchley Park. It is probable that they intercepted messages from Berlin to the SS commanders on the spot. These are likely to have ordered him to take the three liners into deep water to be sunk, with all the concentration camp survivors locked below decks. The SS were, by then, desperate to conceal their crimes.

                  The choice of Typhoon fighter bombers armed only with 3 inch rockets suggests that the RAF wished to kill the SS men on deck rather than sink the ships. Otherwise Lancasters with Barnes Wallis` Tallboy bomb, which had sunk the Tirpitz, would have been used. This would also explain why cannon fire was used to shoot up those swimming away from the ships. Initially at least these would have been the SS guards. As the British Army had recently liberated Bergen-Belsen , many people in the forces knew just what the SS had been doing to concentration camp inmates.

                  It seems to have been a very bitter choice between leaving all the prisoners to die and the SS guards to escape scot-free or killing large numbers of both. I believe that in the circumstances, the right decision was made.

                  Nobody would bother to sink three old luxury liners, in the last days of the war. They would in a few days have become British war booty and might have been refurbished to replace some of the liners which had been sunk by U boats.

                  The reason for secrecy is obvious. For 40 years the secret of the breaking of the Enigma codes was kept. As the Russians captured many of the sets, it is probable that the Red Army continued to use the codes and the coding machines for many years.

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                  • #10
                    War sucks. That's my opinion.
                    To us, it is the BEAST.

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                    • #11
                      I nominate the bombing of Dresden as an Allied war crime.
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                      • #12
                        It was either a war crime or piss poor communication. The person in charge needs to be charged in either case.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by james ensor View Post
                          .

                          The choice of Typhoon fighter bombers armed only with 3 inch rockets suggests that the RAF wished to kill the SS men on deck rather than sink the ships. Otherwise Lancasters with Barnes Wallis` Tallboy bomb, which had sunk the Tirpitz, would have been used.
                          That's a ludicrous suggestion. Tallboy bombs were 12,000 pounds of high explosive, and it only made sense using that kind of immense destructive power against the very largest capital ships. And we knew Germany didn't have any of those by that point, because battleships are really, really, really difficult to hide.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny View Post
                            That's a ludicrous suggestion. Tallboy bombs were 12,000 pounds of high explosive, and it only made sense using that kind of immense destructive power against the very largest capital ships. And we knew Germany didn't have any of those by that point, because battleships are really, really, really difficult to hide.
                            I suppose that your chosen name suggests that you would be rude. The Cap Arcona weighed 27.500 tons, the Deutschland 21,000 tons and the Tirpitz 43,000 tons. The liners would have been far simpler to hit than the Tirpitz as they were in an open bay rather than a fjord. It would have been pointless to sink them at this stage, but if the RAF had wished to do that Lancasters were the obvious choice, perhaps with another Barnes Wallis invention, the smaller bouncing bomb designed for anti-ship use. Even conventional HE bombs would have sufficed. The RAF wanted to shoot the SS men.

                            Your comment is quite off the point and simply abusive.

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                            • #15
                              Describing a statement as "ludicrous" is not a personal attack or abusive.
                              The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland

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