"Unconquered" nations

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

I was reading a thread on another forum about which nations/civilisations could be considered to have never been defeated. It degenerated into the usual "Country X is much better than Country Y because you are teh sux" crap, but it raised some interesting queries-

Which nations/civilisations could be considered to be "undefeated"

And does it actually mean anything?

[Adalbertus]

My first reaction: none.

Depends on what you understand as "defeat". If it is losing a war (to the point it cannot win on its own power), probably every nation has been defeated. If you restrict it to its territory being occupied by an enemy, many American nations were undefeated.

It also depends on what you understand as nation.

[General Ludd]

One take, I suppose, would be simply to list countries that have existed long enough in history for you to be able to say they've pretty much been around forever. China, Egypt, Greece, ect... come to mind. But they don't really exist in the same way that they used to, and they've been through alot in the mean time.

[Dauphin]

Kent. It's motto is 'Invicta'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invicta_%28motto%29

Invicta (meaning undefeated) is the motto of the county of Kent, England. It dates back to the invasion of England by William I of England.

Legend has it that, while marching from the battle site at Hastings, William marched on to London on his way to the (then) capital Winchester. While passing through Kent, the local people picked up branches and marched at William's men. Scared, William and his army took flight and took a different route to London. As the people of Kent felt that they had chased William away, they adopted "Invicta" as a county motto.

Its origin has also been said to have been because Dover, as head of the Cinque Ports, was not besieged or defeated on William's march through Kent, but instead agreed to a conditional surrender to him, on its own terms, and was therefore not conquered by him.

Holding of land in Kent by gavelkind, rather than the feudal-Norman laws of primogeniture, lasted until the early 20th century suggesting that the people of the county did indeed acquire some concessions from the Conqueror.

Invicta appears on the coat of arms of the county beneath a white horse rampant on a red background. The white horse relates to the emblem of Horsa, the brother of Hengest, who defeated the king Vortigern near Aylesford. The first recorded reference to the white horse can be found in Restitution of Decayed Antiquities from 1605 by Richard Verstegan. The book shows an engraving of Hengist and Horsa landing in Kent in 449 under the banner of a rampant white horse.

Invicta is now used regularly within the county. The local independent radio station is called Invicta FM, as are several football teams, and the local ice hockey team, Invicta Dynamos. Many companies in the county use Invicta as a trading name.

[Barnabas]

China was completely conquered by Mongols, Egpyt was completely conquered by many nations, persians, romans etc, and completely arabized by the way.

Greece conquered by romans and turks, jews also conquered, armenians too, ethiopia was conquered by italians, all old nations have been conquered, unconquered nations are mainly new countries

[Kuciwalker]

Switzerland?

[LordShiva]

Greenland

[Slade Wilson]

United States was never conquered and mostly won its wars AFAIK

[LordShiva]

[GePap]

I am asking, but have the Mongols ever been conquered? By that I don't mean the kingdoms founded by Mongols elsewhere, I mean the basic Mongol heartland - did the Chinese or Manchu or Russians ever have complete administrative control, or just some lose hegemony?

Also, is this question applicable to nomads like Berbers or Bedouins? (and I guess, the Mongols)

[lord of the mark]

Historically its not worth it to a pre-modern state to establish a formal administrative structure over nomads. Theyre too hard to tax. So you make a deal with the chief that he will support you against any enemies in the area, in return for trade rights in the settled areas, or something like that. Thats historically the way Muslim rulers, Ottoman and pre-Ottoman dealt with Berber and Beduin nomads(from what I recall of HouraniThe Arab People ) , making the drawing of a "border" on the desert side an artificial exercise. IIUC thats pretty much the way the Chinese dealt with the Mongols WHEN the Chinese were strong enough. When the nomads go rogue, you cut them off from trade, and launch counter raids. You DONT try to "conquer" them.

[GePap]

Ok, so what about when these folks were surrounded by modern states, like they have been for the last century?

[LordShiva]

Mongolia was ruled by the Manchus, the Qing, then effectively by the Soviets.

[Kuciwalker]

The Mongols never existed, silly.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
Ok, so what about when these folks were surrounded by modern states, like they have been for the last century?

well, wrt the Mongols, China wasnt really in the game as a unitified, effective, AND modern power till after 1949. Russia conquered a lot of folks in the 19th c, including the kinds of Islamic states that had the relationship to nomads I described, and they also conquered the nomads. Some of whom were closely related to the Mongols, IIUC. I dont know why they didnt finish off and take Outer Mongolia "proper". I guess they couldnt bring sufficient power to bear till they had the Trans-siberian RR finished, and by that point, they were allied with Britain, a protector of nominal Chinese sovereignty (Open door and all that)
and pushing further into the fringes of China would have been problematic. And they might have faced the prospect of war with Japan again.

After the revolution, they did get a pro-soviet revolution. I dont know how much that was a proper revolution. or how much Soviet pressure played a role. Or if it was just the elite attempting to grab at what looked like the most likely path to modernization.